Yeah, chemical castration doesn't address the underlying psychoses or psychopathies that could drive the worst potential offenders. Those dangerous few need lots of supervision and support to work through their demons. Or, you know, @famousone's thing.
Haven't read about it in a few years so I may be remembering wrong, but iirc the main issues with castration as a deterrent iirc is twofold:
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1) You're going at it with the approach that the offender is operating from a place of logic and sanity. Most of the time they're not. Most pedophiles, for example, are extremely well aware of the risks behind what they're doing. They know if they are caught they will not just go directly to jail without collecting 200$. They'll be ostracized and isolated, quite likely beaten or raped themselves. They won't be able to have jobs, they will lose their friends and their families, they will be highly encouraged to kill themselves. People will attempt to kill them, and others will cheer them on. They'll be labelled monsters.
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Bodily harm is already on the table as a consequence for most of them. But they do it anyway.
I honestly think that castration would probably make a few people hesitate, but the vast majority don't know what to do with their impulses anyway. None of which gives them any modicum of an excuse.
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But castration also implies that the attacks are sexual in nature. Which they are to an extent. But pedophilia and rape nearly always have some underlying driving force. Domination, trauma, etc.
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Edited starting here because I had a couple things mixed up.
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There were a couple guys. Not connected to each other, separate stories. One was YouTuber a few months back. Austin Jones. Singer I think. He was arrested after it was discovered he had solicited pictures and videos from minors SPECIFICALLY asking them to say things like "this ass is only 14" in the videos and such.
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The other guy idk what he did. But he was arrested awhile ago after attempting to negotiate with a mom (actually an FBI agent) to have her underage daughters (non-existent irl) be made into his sex slaves.
The second guy (Jonathan Ryan Ledoux) said several times over the weeks or months they were 'negotiating' things like "are you a cop?" Or implying they hoped they weren't a cop. But he also sounded very resigned about the possibility that the person he was speaking to was a cop. And he arranged to meet them anyway.
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His only main concern was that he didn't want either his parents or his grandparents knowing what happened if he got arrested. He would rather he just disappear. Be locked in a hole for the rest of his life or be killed without them ever knowing what had happened.
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Austin Jones was fairly popular is my understanding. Had a decent channel (I had never heard of him before and haven't seen any of his videos but YouTube was his career if I remember right). Had a fanbase. A decent job making decent money. A family that loved him. The potential for girls his own age all around him. His freedom. Safety.
They both understood VERY clearly the consequences of being caught, and what they had to lose. It wasn't enough to stop either of them.
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I believe at least one of them (possibly both) also claimed to being abused as a child as well. Which, again, isn't an excuse. But if true it means this is something that's been ingrained into him for years.
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End edit
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Abusers can and will find ways to be abusive. Castration by and large just means they have to get more creative to get the psychological release they're searching for. That doesn't mean it might not save victims from some specific types of pain. But it also doesn't mean you won't see more victims. You can cut the hand off a thief, but that doesn't mean they won't find ways to steal.
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And, the other ugly side of castration is:
2) What if you get it wrong? What if you arrested the wrong man? What if no one figures it out until it's too late?
@cakelover, I know you tagged @karlboll but I can help too. "Treating Sex Offenders" by Stinson and Becker has an excellent talk about chemical castration starting on page 7, "Pharmacological Interventions."
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Most approaches to SO treatment are harsh, critical, confrontational, and judgemental. And totally ineffective.
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Learning about the client and paying attention to their goals in treatment is what ultimately keeps communities safe and them leading a good, productive life again.
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Sex offending is a spectrum; there are only five main mental causes. Two of them, making up 70% of offenses, are being mad and being lonely and not knowing how to deal with it. Once taught, those people don't reoffend. They have their lives sorted and their needs met in other, healthy ways.
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The other end of the spectrum is what everyone assumes of a sex offender: a manipulative, sadistic freak who lives to destroy human spirits. In reality, that's 1 in 20 offenders.They tend to get life sentences :)
@xvarnah I hadn't heard of the YouTube guy's case. That's definitely a depraved fantasy he had. I need to update you on the family chat, (which I know I've been saying for months lol) because things are interesting on my end. But here's some stuff: after talking with over a hundred convicted rapists and sex offenders, I have been trying to nail down warning signs for people who might accidentally be training themselves for committing a sexual assault. No one is born a sex offender; no one should be summarily defined as one. So far, for warning signs, I have:
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1a) Only focusing on one sexual fantasy
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1b) Having that fantasy include deviant behavior
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2) Living outside your values (ie knowing it's wrong and being overwhelmingly attracted to it anyway)
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3) Hiding your behavior from your core support group because you think you can control it
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4) Later in the behavioral chain:this fractures into several possibilities because you're on one of the five paths, depending on your unmet need
...(Which my autocorrect just changed to inner beef, and it wasn't totally wrong for a change lol.) But this step, whatever it is, will always start including a potential victim that you don't victimize yet.
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5) This step typically includes a complete offense chain with an actual victim.
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Steps one through three are easy to stop, if the potential offender understands dysregulated emotional states and has basic tools to understand where he/she is lacking. Step 4 needs the intervention of more intense coping mechanisms. Step 5 needs the intervention of the law.
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It's all rough right now, but my project is finally coalescing in to something vaguely functional :D Its been a lot of dark reading and dealing with some intense situations but I hope it'll be ready for a beta release in September or so.
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Edit: autocorrect craziness
First off - I realized I was merging two different cases together when I was talking about them earlier. I went back and edited it to hopefully properly reflect the changes. But if you'd rather just look into it yourself the men in question are Austin Jones, and Jonathan Ledoux
@jasonmon most of them have fairly depraved fantasies haha. Actually I imagine most humans do in general, but theirs are directed at an unacceptable target..
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Good lord over a hundred? I know that's what you've been planning to do, but sheesh... that must get pretty dark after awhile.
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Lol autocorrect is learning. Careful, this might just mean Skynet has become active at last..
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When you say a "potential victim you don't victimize yet" do you mean they fantasize about a specific individual? Or just a specific type of individual?
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It sounds like you have a good framework started. Have you managed to talk with any behavioral psychologists or such at all? I can't remember if you were planning to, though I know you can usually read their thoughts on the matter, but could still be useful insights from other people who have been dealing with this issue for years.
I think another issue is some of them don't really necessarily want to cope. What I mean by this is they know there are resources out there. Some of them have access to it. But the fantasy is too big a draw and the wiring is too screwed up and they'd rather try and make it a reality at the expense of others.
The first guy was convicted in *trafficking* meth, more than once. He spent most of his time in prison and was spiralling dangerously out of control while he was out. The final straw was him possessing two firearms while going back to trafficking meth again. He is clearly demonstrating he's a cancer to society. I'm glad he got life; he was clearly dedicated to assisting in destroying countless lives with drugs instead of contributing anything.
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The child molester is in prison for ten years for hurting one person. He hurt her a lot and he deserves to be knocked out for ten years. The girl will maybe even need 10 years to recover :( After prison, he's on probation for the next ten years where they'll give him the help he needs to not reoffend and hurt another person. I hope he uses that window between 2029 and 2039 to learn from his mistake back in 2018 and be a good, contributing member to society. Statistically, there's a 92% chance he won't ever offend again and he will be okay.
Comments
Castration or death
I'm not exactly sure how it would work with a female rapist, but I'd like to know
The main point isn't to eradicate rape
That will always exist
It's to make the punishment fit the crime
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1) You're going at it with the approach that the offender is operating from a place of logic and sanity. Most of the time they're not. Most pedophiles, for example, are extremely well aware of the risks behind what they're doing. They know if they are caught they will not just go directly to jail without collecting 200$. They'll be ostracized and isolated, quite likely beaten or raped themselves. They won't be able to have jobs, they will lose their friends and their families, they will be highly encouraged to kill themselves. People will attempt to kill them, and others will cheer them on. They'll be labelled monsters.
.
Bodily harm is already on the table as a consequence for most of them. But they do it anyway.
.
But castration also implies that the attacks are sexual in nature. Which they are to an extent. But pedophilia and rape nearly always have some underlying driving force. Domination, trauma, etc.
.
Edited starting here because I had a couple things mixed up.
.
There were a couple guys. Not connected to each other, separate stories. One was YouTuber a few months back. Austin Jones. Singer I think. He was arrested after it was discovered he had solicited pictures and videos from minors SPECIFICALLY asking them to say things like "this ass is only 14" in the videos and such.
.
The other guy idk what he did. But he was arrested awhile ago after attempting to negotiate with a mom (actually an FBI agent) to have her underage daughters (non-existent irl) be made into his sex slaves.
.
His only main concern was that he didn't want either his parents or his grandparents knowing what happened if he got arrested. He would rather he just disappear. Be locked in a hole for the rest of his life or be killed without them ever knowing what had happened.
.
Austin Jones was fairly popular is my understanding. Had a decent channel (I had never heard of him before and haven't seen any of his videos but YouTube was his career if I remember right). Had a fanbase. A decent job making decent money. A family that loved him. The potential for girls his own age all around him. His freedom. Safety.
.
I believe at least one of them (possibly both) also claimed to being abused as a child as well. Which, again, isn't an excuse. But if true it means this is something that's been ingrained into him for years.
.
End edit
.
Abusers can and will find ways to be abusive. Castration by and large just means they have to get more creative to get the psychological release they're searching for. That doesn't mean it might not save victims from some specific types of pain. But it also doesn't mean you won't see more victims. You can cut the hand off a thief, but that doesn't mean they won't find ways to steal.
.
And, the other ugly side of castration is:
2) What if you get it wrong? What if you arrested the wrong man? What if no one figures it out until it's too late?
,
Most approaches to SO treatment are harsh, critical, confrontational, and judgemental. And totally ineffective.
,
Learning about the client and paying attention to their goals in treatment is what ultimately keeps communities safe and them leading a good, productive life again.
,
Sex offending is a spectrum; there are only five main mental causes. Two of them, making up 70% of offenses, are being mad and being lonely and not knowing how to deal with it. Once taught, those people don't reoffend. They have their lives sorted and their needs met in other, healthy ways.
,
The other end of the spectrum is what everyone assumes of a sex offender: a manipulative, sadistic freak who lives to destroy human spirits. In reality, that's 1 in 20 offenders.They tend to get life sentences :)
,
1a) Only focusing on one sexual fantasy
,
1b) Having that fantasy include deviant behavior
,
2) Living outside your values (ie knowing it's wrong and being overwhelmingly attracted to it anyway)
,
3) Hiding your behavior from your core support group because you think you can control it
,
4) Later in the behavioral chain:this fractures into several possibilities because you're on one of the five paths, depending on your unmet need
,
5) This step typically includes a complete offense chain with an actual victim.
,
Steps one through three are easy to stop, if the potential offender understands dysregulated emotional states and has basic tools to understand where he/she is lacking. Step 4 needs the intervention of more intense coping mechanisms. Step 5 needs the intervention of the law.
,
It's all rough right now, but my project is finally coalescing in to something vaguely functional :D Its been a lot of dark reading and dealing with some intense situations but I hope it'll be ready for a beta release in September or so.
,
Edit: autocorrect craziness
.
Good lord over a hundred? I know that's what you've been planning to do, but sheesh... that must get pretty dark after awhile.
.
Lol autocorrect is learning. Careful, this might just mean Skynet has become active at last..
.
When you say a "potential victim you don't victimize yet" do you mean they fantasize about a specific individual? Or just a specific type of individual?
.
It sounds like you have a good framework started. Have you managed to talk with any behavioral psychologists or such at all? I can't remember if you were planning to, though I know you can usually read their thoughts on the matter, but could still be useful insights from other people who have been dealing with this issue for years.
,
The child molester is in prison for ten years for hurting one person. He hurt her a lot and he deserves to be knocked out for ten years. The girl will maybe even need 10 years to recover :( After prison, he's on probation for the next ten years where they'll give him the help he needs to not reoffend and hurt another person. I hope he uses that window between 2029 and 2039 to learn from his mistake back in 2018 and be a good, contributing member to society. Statistically, there's a 92% chance he won't ever offend again and he will be okay.
Both of them.