Not an expert on extremist ideologies, but I'm guessing it goes something like this: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E74e-ZuzgQs
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Basically, people see what they want to see.
That's true. Both bears and seals are in the same Order: "Carnivora". Beyond that however, their classification is a bit murky. But it is safe to say that seals are related to bears at least as closely as humans are to monkeys.
most of it goes to the fact that they are okay with different breeds in the same species. No matter how many times a new breed is created the dog is still part of the same species and as such the little yorkie can still breed with the great dane.
They actually use this example as proof that evolution does not exist because with all the breeding done by man they have not been able to create a new species.
But yes we as a human race tend to give more credence to that which supports our belief and ignore that which does not. It is the same logic fallacy that lends to, "All good basketball players are tall, therefore if one is tall they must be good at basketball."
Okay then what about the examples I listed below? Horses, zebras and donkeys sure are three different species? Guinea fowl and chickens? Lions and tigers?
Also doesn't the term subspecies imply some sort of evolution?
I mean why do they all look so different?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6E6HhUXoAANZdo.jpg:large
Could it be that they adapted to their surrounding's conditions by evolving in different directions....?
Yes, those examples are different species. Also, of course it's a matter of evolution. I wasn't denying that, I was just answering your question.
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One interesting aspect of evolution is that it can be both divergent (your wolf example) and convergent (for example carcinisation, aka "evolve to crab").
Yeah ofc, I know you're on the same side of this argument, I was just "role-playing" if you catch my drift :D
You did a very good job on explaining the creationist viewpoint, that's why I challenged you, sry :)
The last time I got into a verbal spat over this their argument was because all breeds are still one species nothing ever evolved in the first place. I cannot repeat what I said next; it's not polite.
side note: I love how ALL 5 of us say the exact same thing in the comments.
Okay I understand that dogs still are the same species, but if you see a chihuahua next to a great dane, you can't possibly tell me that the idea of sheep and goats sharing a common ancestor is crazy to you?
Also like... Donkeys and horses can also breed with each other but they're definetely different species? Same goes for tigers and lions, guinea fowl and chickens, zebras and donkeys/horses.
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Edited 3 years ago
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· 3 years ago
I believe modern man was created by God. I also believe in evolution and science. I have a degree in natural resources. Evolution happens via beneficial mutations (or selective breeding when humans are involved) that allow an organism to better survive in its habitat and subsequently pass on those genes to its offspring. It can happen as rapidly as a few generations (color morphism is a good example of this, like the squirrels at the Grand Canyon and the moths near London (?) at the start of the Industrial Revolution), or over thousands of years.
As someone who has taken classes involving taxonomy, it is nowhere near perfect and is constantly being rewritten. That's how science works, and it should be taken with a grain of salt.
I believe the Big Bang was an event orchestrated by a Supreme Deity, because it makes no logical sense to me that everything just "happened" to fall into place. The earth is far too complicated for something like that.
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· 3 years ago
Following this, dog breeds are all the same species. Selective breeding is what makes the breeds different, but breed doesn't equal species. All breeds can reproduce with each other, at least, they can produce viable offspring. Humans have screwed up some breeds so much that they have to be artificially inseminated, so go us, I guess?
Any species within the same taxonomical genus are able to reproduce with each other, such as dogs and wolves, since they are both in the Canus genus. They are even the same species Lupus, but the domesticated dog is further split by its subspecies familiaris.
All domestic dogs fall into this subspecies. Breeds are not taxonomically different.
Taxonomy is a weird creature. I mean, manatees are related to the elephant shrew, for goodness sake.
Not to disrespect your faith, but how do you believe in Big Bang and then also believe in God? That's just Creationism with extra steps. And no, science doesn't work with a grain of salt. The whole thing about science is that it works on evidence. People called Einstein a lunatic when he put forth his gravitational force theory, but it got proved a couple of years ago and one more universal mystery got solved. Just because we don't know why something is happening doesn't mean that someone made it happen.
I come from a home of people who are actively practicing a religion, so again, no disrespect to your faith. But it just seems odd to me. Faith can be used as a pick me up, also everyone needs a set of rules and a way of life. But saying that Big Bang was made by God makes no logical sense to me.
If you're going to believe in god, at least you do actually have an answer for the why that makes some sort of sense; the problem is the answer, regardless of god or your how, still works. There is zero utility for the equation to function based off god's input. I think @spookykink58 nailed it, it really is creationism with extra steps... and self-delusion can be as fatal as being delusion itself.
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· 3 years ago
I believe in both because they're not mutually exclusive. It's not difficult, really. And yes, you really do have to take science with a grain of salt because we're still learning and making discoveries. What was true yesterday is not true today, and what's true today could be disproved tomorrow. Look how medicine has changed over the last few centuries. Even just 70 years ago, cigarettes were marketed as being healthy, now we know they're not.
People claim the Big Bang just HAPPENED. Because statistics. It's statistically possible, sure, but not probable. By that very logic, somewhere in the world, somebody's dryer should have resulted in a perfectly folded load of laundry. Again, not likely
Please don't call me deluded. It's quite impolite. I'm a person of logic and introspection. I like to puzzle and reason things out, study things to determine how they work, and analyze people's actions. Despite what you might think, I don't ascribe to religion blindly.
I just want to mention that I back what @riyriamistborn said about the beginning of the universe being far from settled.
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Please realize that lots of the best science gets done when people disagree with the current understood model. Remember the phlogisten or miasma theories? Ugh. Embarrassing now, obviously, but science had a perspective that held us back for centuries because people's rational opinions that didn't fit the old scientific model were disregarded.
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Dissent and argument is good. IMO, I feel like it's best when you focus on the question at hand and don't go after the person with a differing opinion.
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For the creation/evolution debate at a technical level, I've found http://talkorigins.org to be a hugely valuable resource.
ahhh.. the old "science always changes so can never be right" argument. I as well can make 2+2 = 5 if I fiddle with the base.
Right here, right now, let us methodically test our assumptions and see where we wind up. We will both probably wind up lost, but at least I had a bearing.
The more I ponder that thinking, the more it pisses me off. You think you have an answer because that answer makes you feel comfort.... that's like, literally the worst approach you could possibly take... at least with full-blown religion there's a stance in the delusion. You're not only squaring the delusion, you're turning it into a fucking rubix cube.
The answer has always been obvious, 42 sea otters.
as for your little chimp on the typewriter approach; when time is meaningless and possibilities finite, the functions produce exactly one result. It doesn't take the input of an idiot, nor a god, to make the output work.
@jasonmon@riryriamistborn yeah idk what pissed in funk's face this morning, but science is weird a lot of the time
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They used to believe you could mix semen, hair, and trace amounts of other elements in a dish to create a human-like creature known as a homunculus.
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They preached with gusto that fish were incapable of retaining memories beyond 3 seconds (why? I have no idea) until they did some testing and discovered fish (idr the species) could remember things for years
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A bird re-evolved into existence not that long ago
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The Chinese still believe that chewing on lumps of keratin will cure everything. And they've helped wipe a huge chunk of the rhino population out of existence over this belief
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The phrase "we don't know what we don't know" never seems to go out of fashion
There's a difference between science and delusion/superstition. Yes science can be weird, but there's a difference.
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Almost all of these things are superstition. Science is not about what you believe, but what stuff actually is, it takes a couple of tries to get stuff right but that doesn't mean that in the meantime we just go, "Oh yeah a man in the sky did it". We just don't know, simple as that.
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Now I won't disrespect you if you do believe that, but I will disagree.
eh... nobody pee'd in my face. If anything I was rather tame as I was trying to make a joke half the time. If anyone took anything I said with a hint of heat, I'm genuinely sorry, didn't mean to come across that way.
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Basically, people see what they want to see.
They actually use this example as proof that evolution does not exist because with all the breeding done by man they have not been able to create a new species.
But yes we as a human race tend to give more credence to that which supports our belief and ignore that which does not. It is the same logic fallacy that lends to, "All good basketball players are tall, therefore if one is tall they must be good at basketball."
I mean why do they all look so different?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6E6HhUXoAANZdo.jpg:large
Could it be that they adapted to their surrounding's conditions by evolving in different directions....?
*
One interesting aspect of evolution is that it can be both divergent (your wolf example) and convergent (for example carcinisation, aka "evolve to crab").
You did a very good job on explaining the creationist viewpoint, that's why I challenged you, sry :)
side note: I love how ALL 5 of us say the exact same thing in the comments.
Also like... Donkeys and horses can also breed with each other but they're definetely different species? Same goes for tigers and lions, guinea fowl and chickens, zebras and donkeys/horses.
As someone who has taken classes involving taxonomy, it is nowhere near perfect and is constantly being rewritten. That's how science works, and it should be taken with a grain of salt.
I believe the Big Bang was an event orchestrated by a Supreme Deity, because it makes no logical sense to me that everything just "happened" to fall into place. The earth is far too complicated for something like that.
Any species within the same taxonomical genus are able to reproduce with each other, such as dogs and wolves, since they are both in the Canus genus. They are even the same species Lupus, but the domesticated dog is further split by its subspecies familiaris.
All domestic dogs fall into this subspecies. Breeds are not taxonomically different.
Taxonomy is a weird creature. I mean, manatees are related to the elephant shrew, for goodness sake.
I come from a home of people who are actively practicing a religion, so again, no disrespect to your faith. But it just seems odd to me. Faith can be used as a pick me up, also everyone needs a set of rules and a way of life. But saying that Big Bang was made by God makes no logical sense to me.
People claim the Big Bang just HAPPENED. Because statistics. It's statistically possible, sure, but not probable. By that very logic, somewhere in the world, somebody's dryer should have resulted in a perfectly folded load of laundry. Again, not likely
Please don't call me deluded. It's quite impolite. I'm a person of logic and introspection. I like to puzzle and reason things out, study things to determine how they work, and analyze people's actions. Despite what you might think, I don't ascribe to religion blindly.
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In seriousness though, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this riyriamistborn
,
Please realize that lots of the best science gets done when people disagree with the current understood model. Remember the phlogisten or miasma theories? Ugh. Embarrassing now, obviously, but science had a perspective that held us back for centuries because people's rational opinions that didn't fit the old scientific model were disregarded.
,
Dissent and argument is good. IMO, I feel like it's best when you focus on the question at hand and don't go after the person with a differing opinion.
,
For the creation/evolution debate at a technical level, I've found http://talkorigins.org to be a hugely valuable resource.
Right here, right now, let us methodically test our assumptions and see where we wind up. We will both probably wind up lost, but at least I had a bearing.
The answer has always been obvious, 42 sea otters.
Those two words are auto-fail in this argument.
`
They used to believe you could mix semen, hair, and trace amounts of other elements in a dish to create a human-like creature known as a homunculus.
`
They preached with gusto that fish were incapable of retaining memories beyond 3 seconds (why? I have no idea) until they did some testing and discovered fish (idr the species) could remember things for years
`
A bird re-evolved into existence not that long ago
`
The Chinese still believe that chewing on lumps of keratin will cure everything. And they've helped wipe a huge chunk of the rhino population out of existence over this belief
`
The phrase "we don't know what we don't know" never seems to go out of fashion
.
Almost all of these things are superstition. Science is not about what you believe, but what stuff actually is, it takes a couple of tries to get stuff right but that doesn't mean that in the meantime we just go, "Oh yeah a man in the sky did it". We just don't know, simple as that.
.
Now I won't disrespect you if you do believe that, but I will disagree.