Touche.
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There is a logic brakedown in the Vax vs ant-vax debate.
1) Pro-Vax does NOT = pro mandate.
2) pro-Vax is arguing the ideology that if you care about people you would Vax. Vax-choice is counter arguing that the risk of covid does not necessitate vaxinating.
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Until we can articulate and agree on what exactly we're debating, this thing is going to be like playing chess with a pigeon.
It's not actually all that possible when the powers that be are regularly changing the definitions of words to make it impossible TO articulate.
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Vaccine used to more or less mean a treatment that would offer immunity to a virus. Usually a virus that is deadly or debilitating for large swathes of the population.
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Now it means an untested treatment with unlisted ingredients that only POSSIBLY offers some reduction in symptoms, and must be re-administered as often as the powers that be (who have lied repeatedly) say so. It also means you any alternative methods of treatment will be not just cautioned against, but banned, mislabeled, and cost doctors their jobs for so much as discussing. Failure to comply with this treatment for any reason will justify your removal from society.
You cannot have a dialogue about these situations because they have deliberately changed the definitions to make themselves less culpable and distract from what's going on.
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Which, imo, if the product they're selling actually did what it's supposed to do, they wouldn't have any reason to be pulling this Orwellian bullshit in the first place.
No. It's not. Countless times generals have forced vaccines upon soldiers either to get it and treat it or have them die and be burned. The moment it could be done with a needle the entire fucking world celebrated. The government has conspiracies, no argument there. I've seen what happens when an entirely family has it. It's not pretty, and the immuno-compromised die; at least they can die swift.
X, I agree with you that vaccine mandates are Orwellian. I disagree that we can't communicate about it. We don't have to play in anyone's spin of the situation. We can define the details in our 1 on 1 conversations.
I've also seen what happens when families get covid. They're ill for a couple days, they're tired for a couple weeks, then they're normal again. It's a mistake to take our individual experiences and assume the rest of the world is the same.
I guess I was being a bit forceful with saying we cannot do it definitively
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But they certainly have made it more difficult - especially in any official capacity
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And I know nobody has said I said this, but just to clarify - I'm not saying covid can't or hasn't been deadly. I am technically in a high risk category as far as I know, as are several of my family. A family member of mine currently has covid who is also high risk.
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People who feel covid is enough of a threat and the vaccine is enough of a solution should, by all means, get the vaccine.
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People who feel covid is a threat, and would prefer to try ivermectin, by all means, give it a shot.
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People who feel iffy about the vaccine-- let them be.
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As it stands right now the vaccine does not offer any protect against transmission or contraction. So anyone can still be infected with covid by anyone else - as has been proven over and over again.
I think that was more directed at me, and you would be correct; but why even risk it? The outcome of one person dying is not worth it. This ain't fucking triage; as it is preventable. The steps to prevent it, eh. If you can't work remotely or have a fund to draw from, please get vaccinated. Oh, and then kids. Shoulda remembered all that HS stuff so you can educate. Lego for engineering and art; piss them off for logic, then let the father teach combat... unless of course you're a strong woman. Oh... and hunting... def teach them hunting. I don't mean that w/ like a rifle, there are other ways.
The same could be said the other way around.
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We have no idea what's in these vaccines, or the long term effects.
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The drug companies refuse to provide information about them, have actively been caught lying about them, and are immune from any consequences.
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The government and drug companies will actively seek to destroy ANYONE who so much as suggests alternate methods of treatment -- EVEN IF they may be effective.
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Most covid deaths occur in the elderly and/or obese with other comorbidities.
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We don't know what will be the consequences of these "vaccines" (although compromised and lowered immune systems seem to be a concern).
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We DO know that most children and adults will not die of covid.
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We also know that children and adults have died after getting the vaccine - some mysteriously, others in direct correlation.
The vaccine will not stop any of these people from transmitting covid to someone in a high risk category.
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So why risk it?
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Or, better still, why demand their children risk it?
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If they are going to force someone to choose between turning their child into a lab rat, or starving them in the street, they had best be able to justify it beyond "it will make other people feel a bit more comfortable."
except mRNA vaccines have been in development for over 40 years. It makes sense how they function; a virus augments your DNA so when it copies it reproduced the virus. If you can block where it's trying to reproduce, or put a sequence in place to stop the copy paste, no virus to care about until it mutates... but if it goes away before it mutates, it doesn't matter. Over 90% of your DNA is from old RNA copies. The worst it can do is make your arm hurt from being jabbed; and that's on the dude giving you the shot due to lack of precision.
If it is so very safe then why, exactly, did the pharmaceutical companies lie and deny about how they were being made? Why won't they release the ingredients now?
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"The worst it can do is make your arm hurt from being jabbed; and that's on the dude giving you the shot due to lack of precision."
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The parents and families of the people that dropped dead or developed new or worsening conditions will be relieved to know that it was all in their head
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But, again, as I said. You want to get it done, off you go mate. I genuinely hope it works exactly as you expect it to.
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My issue starts when you start trying to force that needle in my arm
It’s a slippery slope- mandating what people can do or must do with their own bodies.
On principle I’m largely against a government forcing people to do things for “the greater good.”
There is also a documented history of abuses of public trust by the government. The Tuskegee experiments and numerous other horrible experiments were done to various communities like African Americans. Our soldiers have been given drugs and treatments proven, known at the time, or strongly implicated in all sorts of health issues and told they were for their own good or not told what they really got at all.
The government, MIT, and Quaker Oats teamed up to feed radioactive oatmeal to children to study them. Nuclear and biological agents have been released on US cities by the government for testing and “public safety” and caused deaths and other issues.
So there is more to it- but that isn’t all there is to it. There is no law that states the unvaccinated be arrested. In most any situation where your vaccination status only impacts you, suck as in your home or on your property, you can freely be unvaccinated. In spaces open to the public mandates may require people to be vaccinated if they wish to participate.
This is already the case with many public safety measures including many vaccines. Special exemptions exist for covid as well as existing vaccines and health requirements and can be applied for where they are appropriate.
Most analogies aren’t perfect- but let’s try another one. If a person wishes to smoke- they can. It is proven bad for them and others around them or even entering an area long after they smoked there. You are free to do it- but you can’t do it anywhere right? The government didn’t tell you you can’t smoke, but most places have laws that prevent or mitigate people from choosing to engage in that behavior where their choice to endanger themselves may endanger others. A teacher can’t smoke in their kindergarten class in basically 99% of the country for example, or a passenger on an airplane.
Smoking laws do take away the freedom of smokers, but to ensure everyone has the most rights.
TL:DR-
Lots of valid reasons to be skeptical of the government and untested vaccines. No one is forcing the vaccine on general citizens though. You have a choice to make.
You can take the risk on the vaccine and go out and play, or you can sit it out until you are vindicated or decide you feel comfortable getting the shot.
You do NOT get the choice to put the risk on every person you meet because you do not want to take the risk on the vaccine.
If you don’t want the vaccine, don’t take it. If you want to work somewhere or go to school there etc- make your decision what you want more. That’s life. An employer can refuse to hire you if you drink, if you smoke, if you use illegal drugs even. These things aren’t “protected classes” as nor is being an “independent thinker.” Independent thinkers make their decisions based on facts and consequences. If you can’t get hired someplace because you don’t want the shot, choose which you care more about the same as smoker need choose.
"You do NOT get the choice to put the risk on every person you meet because you do not want to take the risk on the vaccine."
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I firmly disagree with this. There is ample evidence that covid vaccines significantly minimise the risk of death for the vaccinated person. There is no evidence that any of these covid vaccines reduce transmission.
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What you wrote is pure propaganda with the false support of "science".
There will be a day when this "pandemic of the unvaccinated" Propaganda loses it's effectiveness and citizens begin to rationally look back at this pandemic outside of the political lense. It will be determined that our global response to covid was much more damaging to the collective quality of human life than the virus ever could have been.
"No one is forcing the risk on general citizens though"
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I am honestly sick of hearing people push this lie.
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I was originally informed that I was medically exempt from getting this vaccine. As in there were actual medical risks for getting it.
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Then the government changed the rules. Because of bullshit like what was just spewed I was informed I would be forced to get the vaccine or potentially lose my job.
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I'm far from the only person who has experienced this.
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I know people who have been denied access to people who are DEAD because they're unvaccinated. They don't get to say goodbye to the people they love.
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Children are told "either your parents give you this, or its their fault you can't play hockey anymore."
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Police have been pulling people over, tackling them to the ground, fining and arresting them in places for not wearing masks.
Nurses and doctors have been fired for being unvaccinated. The same people that were the heroes when all of this started losing their jobs and being kept out of ther industry.
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Some doctors have been forced to get psychological examinations for suggesting alternate forms of treatment beyond the holy vaccine.
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Others have been forced to get the vaccine just so they can have an income because - OH RIGHT - the government's were also denying financial support to the unvaccinated in some places, and were threatening to tax them.
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This is what people like you continually present over and over as a goddamn "choice."
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And it's as disgusting as it is dishonest.
@princessmonstertru- debatable. If we don’t cherry pick and take credible studies that show the vaccine does stop transmission and ones that say it does not, we can assume a middle ground which is the conclusion of the consensus of experts- that the vaccines HELPS stop the spread but is not 100% effective at stopping it.
Not 100% effective is not the same thing as “doesn’t work” as few things including basic medicine or treatments, condoms and birth control, or even other safety measures are “100% effective.”
And it MIGHT all be bullshit anyway- we used to think spirits made people sick and many doctors didn’t believe in germs into the 20th century. So someday, maybe tomorrow even, they’ll say: “we were wrong.”
The common problem there in science is- nothing in science is ever proven right, just likely. Until something is proven wrong, we have to go off the “best we know” and compare the risks if we are wrong to the costs of ignoring what seems right at the time.
@xvarnah- nothing you’ve said negates the fact it is not legally required to be vaccinated. People have been fired for going to work naked but you can choose to be naked in your home or a nudist colony.
People have been fired for drinking on their breaks or before work- but you are legally allowed to drink alcohol in your free time.
As for your belief firing nurses who aren’t vaccinated betrays former “heroes,” if a doctor refuses to wear a mask in surgery or a nurse refuses to wear gloves or wash their hands on duty, are they still fit for the job and that’s ok?
To your comment about the maskless being attacked by police-
1. I don’t see how a comment on masks applies to vaccines not being legally required. Police aren’t tackling people they think are unvaccinated who are just walking down the street are they? Related issue but separate from this topic.
2. Police use of force against petty crimes is a hot topic and its own topic. I do seem to remember you and certain others who have taken a strong stance against masks having some things to say when the topic of use of force came up around the time of Floyd and BLM.
This is what it feels like when that threat isn’t something that only happens to other people. I do not feel unwarranted force against the maskless or other petty criminals and “activists” is a good thing.
Like I said in other threads on the topic- why are we debating masks and crap when the police might kill you or injure you for a petty crime or suspicion of petty crime? That seems a more pressing and wider reaching topic.
You: if a doctor doesn't wear a mask, is it still a problem if they're unvaccinated?
Also you (literally 5 seconds later): I don't see what masks have to do with the vaccine debate.
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If you're going to have double standards, at least try to space them out a bit farther so they're not so glaringly obvious, yea?
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2. Define the crime you're referring to. And also let me know what my stance was about George Floyd and how it's relevant and maybe I'll address whatever insanity you're trying to imply now. I don't actually consider people burning cities to the ground the same as government medical experiments being forced on children the same issue, but i'm apparently an anomaly on that front lol
"When the threat is something that only happens to other people."
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Which threat and what people? At the risk of hating my existence for the next several minutes, I will ask you to elaborate
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I understand you are desperate to imply something with this statement, but the lack of clarity involved in which group of people can't relate to what group of people being threatened by whom makes it rather difficult
@guest_ your language was referring to stopping the spread. There is no 'stopping of covid. Just like all viruses, covid will continue to mutate, and it will continue to be less deadly. It will be with us just like the flu has been for decades (probably centuries).
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The whole concept of "fighting" covid is wrong. We simply need to manage it.
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Regarding how effective vaccines are at minimizing transmission: I don't want to be the person who puts the burden of proof on the other person, but I'm not sure where to go with this. I've searched for hours, and I cannot find any evidence to rationally suggest any measurable change in transmissibility of covid due to vaccination. There are some low volume sample surveys "studies" that imply a difference, but the results vary from 0 to 75% effective. Any accurate scientific study would need to be repeatable with a result range far smaller than 75%. If you know where I can find the real thing, I would be greatly appreciative.
Karl, those vaccines all provided immunity for the associated disease.
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All of the covid vaccines (so far) are much more similar to what we've commonly called a shot (for example a flu shot).
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The CDC changed the defenition of a vaccine from providing "imunity" to providing "protection" mid covid...... I'll let you come up with a reason why that would be necessary.
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Every single one of the vaccines (exept flu, which is not even close to eradicated) you reference is effective at drastically limiting and even stopping disease transmission. The covid vaccines do not.
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Your argument is true, but you're ladder is up against the wrong building.
The flu vaccine yes. The one that existed before covid 19. The one that your employer could fire you for not having. In an “at will” employment state-
You can be fired for any reason except protected class or retaliation. So what they changed in the definition after covid is sort of… pointless. The timing worked out to make a change that needed made anyway since… the flu. Among others. The vaccine doesn’t even grant immunity if we want to play semantics. Your immune system does, a vaccine prompts the response. But again- it’s semantics. So if we call it the “covid shot” or toaster oven or soda or something instead of “vaccine” we can ignore that entire topic.
The military has required a whole bunch of shots and a haircut for at least 70 years. Most schools have required a bunch of shots or exemptions for a few generations already. It is what it is. If you don’t want it- don’t get it.
And for the record- I didn’t get my vaccine for over a year. I isolated and didn’t leave my house except to walk around outside alone. No parties, no travel, no shopping. Mail order and delivery. I didn’t trust the vaccine because- well duh. I don’t think I need to explain that to most people here.
I got it because my partner wanted to do things again and I needed a card to do them. So, my choice, make them happy and maybe get space hepatitis in 50 years or whatever the hell people are afraid of- or keep unstuck and stay home forever.
And you each get to make that choice too. No one is forcing a needle into your arm. Say no, stay home;
Or say yes and go play. The same way maybe you used to have to finish your lunch before recess or dinner getting desert. Your parents or the school
Weren’t infringing your rights- you had a choice. No one would say: “schools forced food into my child’s body” because they weren’t allowed to play until they ate lunch. Let’s be serious here.
"No one is forcing a needle in your arm"
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In response to this outright and absolute lie of the most nefarious kind, I can only offer, from the absolute bottom of my heart, my most sincere and heartfelt "get fucked with every spoke of the devil's pitchfork."
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May you never feel the anxiety and depression people like you force on others when you threaten their jobs, their healthcare, their life, their children. May you never have to choose between putting food on your table or becoming a government guineapig. May you never have to find the corpse of your child from mysterious circumstances. May you never be forced to compromise your religious beliefs. May you never be denied treatment because it doesn't make Pfizer enough money.
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May your partner never use the type of gaslighting you are attempting to do here.
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And may you one day move to a country like Austria so you can experience the idyllic authoritarianism you so eagerly worship.
Xvarnah- your words seem to come from a hurt place. I am sorry you feel so much fear and anxiety and hurt. I do not take your insult seriously or give any ill will towards you for it. It can be hard to discuss things that touch on other issues wile have and keep a level and mature head. Anxiety is a serious issue, all people face it in various ways and I wish it on no one, even if it is a reality of life.
As an adult, I often must do things I don’t want to do. I’m not necessarily forced to them at gunpoint or anything, but to live the life I want requires sacrifices of other things. We can’t have our way all the time sadly. This is even true if we lived in caves and had no society. Nature forces tough choices on us and being social forces tough choices on us. We decide what is important and the lives we live are in part the result of that, in part other factors we can’t control.
I’ve known people who had such severe social and other issues that even getting presentable for work or adhering to a dress code caused them great stress. Some decided that they couldn’t do it and went to jobs where they could avoid those anxieties. I’ve left jobs because what the job required caused me too much mental stress or I simply didn’t feel it was “worth it” to trade what I had to give for the pay they offered. That’s life. Somewhere out there a polyamorous person is deeply in love with a monogamous person and neither one can “budge.” Their relationship would require one to give up something they just can’t. It’s sad, but what can we do when a relationship requires a change we don’t want? We compromise or move on. If the other won’t compromise- we decide what is worth more to us and follow that.
And of course, I’ve been in the position where I had to work a job that caused me great stress and asked too much and had no choice- I needed the job. I had to do what they asked because I had no other real options to just barely get by. Getting off work at 10pm to bicycle to my next job, hustling for cash doing horrible work for less than minimum wage etc.
A crappy position. In those moments we are tested and some of us pass and some fail. We get to decide what pass or fail means. Maybe work wants you to use a 5G device and you’re worried about brain cancer, or they require you to sweat pipes full of cadmium waste water. Maybe it’s a shot. Every day, long before covid, people decide these things. Every Amazon order or almost every product ends up as the anxiety of some worker in the world who can either starve or work horrible unsafe conditions for pennies. This issue doesn’t help them, but foxing their issues could help this one no?
Guest, correct me if I'm wrong, but your last 3 paragraphs have a theme of "choice". It's the idea that life is hard, and sometimes we have to choose to walk away from situations, or careers that bring us anxiety. You're right on both accounts.
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Xvarnah and I have chosen to reject the mandates. Our choice to fight them is just as legitimate as your choice to accept them.
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In order for us to learn from eachother, we have to keep focused on the underlying principals and values in play.
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Interestingly enough, the value i'm fighting for is the right for individual choice. I think the ability for individuals to choose, and the preceeding reasoning leading up to that choice is what makes us uniquely human. I believe that the right to choose (and discuss those choices) is THE right that all other rights are built on top of.
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A corporation cannot take away your right to choose because you can always choose to leave the corporation. Governments have a much more....
Serious role, and they absolutely can remove rights.
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Regarding vaccine mandates: the governments are taking the easy way out by putting citizens in a position where they aren't "forced" to take a vaccine. They hope to disrupt people's lives so much that they "choose" to get vaccinated. What's even worse about this little trick is that it's forcing citizens "businesses and employees" to enforce citizens "anyone who wants to participate in the economy".
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I think I can help you understand where xvarnah and I are coming from: imagine skipping the chicken $hit misdirection and instead imagine a government directly implementing a vaccine mandate. I.e. use the enforcement sections of government (police and military) to go door to door and inject every eligible citizen. You don't have to go far down that road before it gets pretty scary.
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I believe our mandates in their current form are a step closer to a very slippery slope that has tyranny at the bottom.
@princessmomstertru- well said, thank you. I agree on points and disagree on others. I was raised in part by the craziest of crazy (not being sarcastic) and have a whopping distrust of government to almost conspiratorial levels. This all stinks to high hell and is questionably legal. I don’t contend those points. I also don’t contend that offering choice A as an “easy road” and making choice B intentionally difficult to discourage choice B is kinda crappy in general even if it’s common.
I also think liberty is a slippery slope. I think what Texas did with its abortion law and what California is doing with “gun insurance” and other states are likely to follow in a similar vein to skirting the law is dangerous and not how the law was intended.
And that’s where I get very worried and what the basis of my contention is- the Supreme Court is allowing the governments of states and the federal government to use Texas SB style bans.
And the abuse of “temporary emergency powers” that became deaf to law after decades goes back a ways- but in our current times we can point to 9/11 and the enduring abuses to freedom we suffer in the name of “never again” for something that happened one time and can be prevented or mitigated other ways but those ways don’t give broad powers and direct authorization to break existing rulings on surveillance.
And so while we all focus on face diapers and a little shot that most people aren’t even saying they wouldn’t get- just that they want more research and study before they do….
The larger issues pass by under the radar. The Supreme Court and the mechanisms that exist so that we shouldn’t have to fight constant fuxkery and attempts to grab power are broken. We can argue 90000000 small abuses that could slip down the slope forever, or we could tackle the systemic roots that allow ALL these types of fuxkery to be allowed once every few decades when a reminder is needed.
What I see as a HUGE danger- this is a slippery slope right? And so many things are. So many seemingly small things or innocuous things are “small” issues that come up all the time. If the system allows these things to slip by unless we catch them, we can only fight and debate so many things at once and get anywhere right? So if I throw 1,000 “small” but slippery slopes at you, if you miss even one that’s one more stone in a wall of tyranny. This isn’t secret knowledge, it’s like 2+2, so bet the people wanting to sneak things by are aware. So while we debate over here, they sneak something past over there, and before you know it, one way or another the debate over masks or vaccines or whatever is done, and you turn around to see a fortress of tyranny built behind you one brick at a time while you were off trying to stop a minor battle from losing the war.
We must be vigilant for our freedom, but we are supposed to have systems in place that work to help us so we don’t have to sleep with one eye open in case someone tries to sneak one by in the night. Those systems are broken.
Like a patient in a hospital bed- you can spend lots of time treating their sores so they don’t get infected and much worse- but if they’re bleeding from the jugular that needs to be treated or you’ll lose them before they could worry about their sores rotting. It doesn’t make sense to me with how dug in everyone is to push an issue largely going nowhere while our democracy bleeds from the neck. We had a (poorly) attempted insurrection- the democracy could have fallen and seen a despot seize the office by force against the will of the people. How much freedom are you guaranteed under a despot? The slope is much more slippery when an elected position is seized by force or coercion. We need to fix the system. That’s my take anyway.
I believe the thing holding the United States firmly in place is the decloration of independence, the bill of rights, and the constitution. The structure of those charters of freedom continually point the power back toward the people. The only way it can be overthrown is to convince the masses that it should be overthrown. And the easiest tell that an overthrow is beginning is the silencing of voices. Wrong or dangerous opinions should be understood and debated, but never silenced.
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This cancel culture thing that's been happening over the last few years is the largest threat to out freedom in decades.
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You described the tyranny as a slow, and seemingly inevitable takeover. I tend to think of it as more of a pendulum that is currently almost peaked out on the tyranny side. Real protests are happening (not the paid and organized BLM protests from a couple years ago). And real conversations, just like this one, are happening all over the country.
There will be some people who recognize this leadership vacuum and step into campaigns with the message of fighting for our rights and freedoms. No amount of vote tampering will be able to stop that wave, and that will be the start of swinging the pendulum back the other way.
Some helpful advice when choosing role models is this: reject anyone who says that you or your "people" (whatever that means) are victims and vote for them so they can save you.
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Instead, find the people who tell you to take your power back, and to take so much personal responsibility for your own life that you are able to help other people do the same.
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The latter is where you'll find a meaningful life. The former feels good at first but fades as fast as the dopamine after someone gives your FS post a thumbs up :)
@princessmonstertru- again, we agree on many details and points. I also believe that the framework of our government is the constitution etc, and power is supposed to be directed to the people. The interpretation and enforcement of those documents and processes however are controlled by elected officials and branches of government which are not upholding precedent and not upholding the fundamental intent of those documents. When people are prevented from their votes counting or restricted from voted for example- it is like our earlier talk about having a choice that isn’t a choice. Saying a person can vote but districting then or restricting voting so they practically can’t exercise the right, removed their voice and their basic say in our political system.
I’m not going to touch the BLM stuff because there are things we could go in the weeds on there, but tyranny is both things in my mind. A pendulum and a creeping specter. The inevitability comes from the nature of man. We can fight it, but it all ends up as sides of a coin.
As an example- when you describe how to choose role models- your description basically covers all the “leadership” figures we have. In these covid debates people on one side tend to see the other as brain washed- the “sheep” to the “system” and the “sheep” to “conspiracy.”
The word “victim” is politically charged- its semantics. Assault victim? No! “Survivor.”
But if we just look at what the word is saying- a victim is someone who was injured or harmed- someone who “takes your power back” is already painting you as a victim. The fact you need to get your power back illustrates you were or are a victim, unless you gave your power away and changed your mind- it was taken or lost causing you harm or loss.
My advice is for choosing role models is don’t. Or stick to fiction and the sorts of inhuman and unbelievable characters and Devine persons. People speak to their base. They say what they think they need to to get the support they need to do whatever it is they want to get done.
We read what we want to see in the words of others. 10,000+ couples all have “their song” and it’s the same song- and for each of them it’s their special song that speaks perfectly to them blah blah. We see in the words of speakers what we want. We take what suits us as a message.
Many people have admirable traits, look at the traits a person has that you admire and try to live up to those, but as a whole, placing a person on a pedestal is dangerous. It leads to cults of personality and issues like we have today where people follow their “role models” and “leaders” because they are blinded by who is saying it and not what is really being said.
In the end, with people things almost always come back to self interest. There are exceptions, but even the seemingly altruistic behaviors of most can most often be traced to some form of self interest. We don’t even need other people to think or feel as we do, so long as other people are working towards the things we want to happen, our self interest and basic strategy will form us into groups. Groups schism and split as differences among members cause self interest to make the goals of individuals no longer aligned to the original group.
It is a pragmatic but crappy outlook to ask “what am I getting out of this deal” through life- but it is wise to ask “what is this OTHER PERSON getting?”
People with power or influence with followings generally are adept at using humans as tools to get what they want, and keeping those people appeased.
Control that doesn’t come from force or coercion generally comes from appealing to the self interests of others.
Knowing what people want and how to offer them what they want in order to get them to act in ways that get YOU what you want is a skill most powerful people have. You can easily get people to act against their own self interest by making them believe that they are acting for it, if you know how and they are willing to fall for it or wanting desperately enough what you offer.
This is the trap people fall into. The simplest way to spring that trap is to get people to fixate on minute and ultimately irrelevant or insignificant details. By giving crumbs they can distract you while they sneak the main course off the table all for themselves. Then you thank them for returning the crumbs to you.
A narrow vision can’t see anything but what it is fixated on.
I find this analogy weird because we were all staying in our lanes before this happened.
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The mandate people are the ones trying to tell people otherwise.
-You now must drive this specific car and ONLY this specific car. We assure you this car is much safer than your original car. It has no proven protections and the engine may occasionally explode. You need not concern yourself with such things.
-You must also stop at toll booths multiple times anytime you leave the house to prove you are in this type of car.
-A portion of the population has difficulty driving at night. Therefore none of you will be permitted to drive at night moving forward. This is for your protection.
-Failure to comply will result in immediate removal of access to all motor vehicles, suspension of license, fines, and potential jail time.
-It is completely your choice to not comply. You can always walk to work, school, home, the store, and anywhere else you may need to be.
More like
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- we have discovered that your car has no seatbelts
- get a new car, get seatbelts for your current car or don't drive your current car
- take the bus instead if you have to
-Your car can actually grow its own seatbelts but if it does that we'll force you to install our seatbelts anyway, regardless of the fact that your seatbelts are far more effective and we've admitted ours don't work
-you can ride the bus wherever you need to go, provided you prove you have one of our seatbelts in your car
Look, I'm vaccinated, booster, and flu shot. Still got it.
Vaccines are supposed to stop you from getting it. We all know they don't with the current variants.
Since they don't, how can you mandate something that doesn't stop the spread?
Vaccines don't actually stop the virus from infecting you, it trains your immune response to react faster and better so you don't get a serious infection. With some viruses and vaccines this means you might get a bit of a sniffle rather than getting a full blown case of the flu.
@karlboll no shit. The point is not to get infected by having enough t cells it gets killed right away so you can't spread it, like with polio, chicken pox, measles, etc.
Did the covid vaccines do that? No.
So how can you mandate them and have people lose their jobs over it.
@geekor- I get where you’re coming from, and the way this pandemic has been handled and communicated is piss poor 100%.
That said, no vaccine is completely effective. Seat belts and air bags aren’t completely effective either. People still die in crashes. People still get hurt. Seatbelts actually kill people and injure people sometimes in cases where they would have been fine- women have a higher chance than most men- but seatbelts can slit your throat in even a relatively minor crash. Seatbelts can and do often cause compression injuries to the neck, shoulders, ribs, and spine.
We mandate seatbelts even though they aren’t 100% effective or anywhere near it. Even though in some cases they cause more harm than good.
Despite not being perfect and even causing injuries or fatalities sometimes- seatbelts and their mandate are linked to observable declines in fatalities and severe injuries.
Vaccination has been linked to an overall decline in deaths and severe cases in vaccinated populations.
You can argue those declines are from other things like viral mutations etc- but we can also argue accident injuring drops after seatbelts are caused by other improved technology on modern cars like better brakes and chassis design or safety systems like TCS and ABS or even we could argue people have become better drivers on average (not saying that’s true- we could argue that’s why though…)
But it’s kinda moot- you can be declined a job or fired from your job as a teacher for getting a face tattoo that says “legalize abortion” even though both those things are freedoms you have to self express. You can be fired for refusing a TB vaccine or for pissing hot after your day off. How is this so different?
You can be fired for refusing a TB vaccine
Not in most professions. That's a cherry picked small percentage argument.
I work for a video game company that as of April are forcing you. Fucking we can be 100% remote and have been for 2 years with record profits, but it's the control aspect.
The vaccine doesn't stop the spread, boosters or not you still get it. TB vaccine stops you from getting it, big big difference.
Not to mention the government is not putting pressure on any company NOT to hire people with facial tattoos to my knowledge, AND you potentially have legal and financial recourse if you do get fired.
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Right now if you get fired from your job over covid vaccines the government has applied pressure if not all out shut down companies who do not have their employees forcibly vaccinated.
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They were talking about and in some places implementing a denial of any social welfare programs if your reason for termination was being unvaccinated.
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They additionally were planning on taxing the unvaccinated to put additional financial pressure on people - despite the fact that they do not tax any other group for their perceived medical ineptitude.
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One is a personal choice - which you could potentially be sued over. The other a government mandated discrimination clause.
Denial of social welfare for the unvaccinated is wrong IMHO- though there can be caveats about that given many feel that people who CAN work but make decisions that prevent them from working shouldn't get benefits. I personally don’t think that, but anyone who’s ever argued that people who refuse job training programs or to adhere to certain conditions like not using drugs etc. to receive welfare can’t really complain in this case applying the same logic.
Sucks to lose your job. Don’t wish that on almost anyone. Guess life is full of questions. Do you choose to exercise your freedom to smoke weed or do meth and maybe lose your job? Do you choose to refuse the shot and maybe lose your job? I guess it depends what you believe and what is important to you and what your integrity is worth.
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There is a logic brakedown in the Vax vs ant-vax debate.
1) Pro-Vax does NOT = pro mandate.
2) pro-Vax is arguing the ideology that if you care about people you would Vax. Vax-choice is counter arguing that the risk of covid does not necessitate vaxinating.
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Until we can articulate and agree on what exactly we're debating, this thing is going to be like playing chess with a pigeon.
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Vaccine used to more or less mean a treatment that would offer immunity to a virus. Usually a virus that is deadly or debilitating for large swathes of the population.
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Now it means an untested treatment with unlisted ingredients that only POSSIBLY offers some reduction in symptoms, and must be re-administered as often as the powers that be (who have lied repeatedly) say so. It also means you any alternative methods of treatment will be not just cautioned against, but banned, mislabeled, and cost doctors their jobs for so much as discussing. Failure to comply with this treatment for any reason will justify your removal from society.
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Which, imo, if the product they're selling actually did what it's supposed to do, they wouldn't have any reason to be pulling this Orwellian bullshit in the first place.
I've also seen what happens when families get covid. They're ill for a couple days, they're tired for a couple weeks, then they're normal again. It's a mistake to take our individual experiences and assume the rest of the world is the same.
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But they certainly have made it more difficult - especially in any official capacity
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And I know nobody has said I said this, but just to clarify - I'm not saying covid can't or hasn't been deadly. I am technically in a high risk category as far as I know, as are several of my family. A family member of mine currently has covid who is also high risk.
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People who feel covid is enough of a threat and the vaccine is enough of a solution should, by all means, get the vaccine.
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People who feel covid is a threat, and would prefer to try ivermectin, by all means, give it a shot.
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People who feel iffy about the vaccine-- let them be.
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As it stands right now the vaccine does not offer any protect against transmission or contraction. So anyone can still be infected with covid by anyone else - as has been proven over and over again.
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We have no idea what's in these vaccines, or the long term effects.
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The drug companies refuse to provide information about them, have actively been caught lying about them, and are immune from any consequences.
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The government and drug companies will actively seek to destroy ANYONE who so much as suggests alternate methods of treatment -- EVEN IF they may be effective.
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Most covid deaths occur in the elderly and/or obese with other comorbidities.
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We don't know what will be the consequences of these "vaccines" (although compromised and lowered immune systems seem to be a concern).
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We DO know that most children and adults will not die of covid.
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We also know that children and adults have died after getting the vaccine - some mysteriously, others in direct correlation.
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So why risk it?
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Or, better still, why demand their children risk it?
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If they are going to force someone to choose between turning their child into a lab rat, or starving them in the street, they had best be able to justify it beyond "it will make other people feel a bit more comfortable."
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"The worst it can do is make your arm hurt from being jabbed; and that's on the dude giving you the shot due to lack of precision."
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The parents and families of the people that dropped dead or developed new or worsening conditions will be relieved to know that it was all in their head
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But, again, as I said. You want to get it done, off you go mate. I genuinely hope it works exactly as you expect it to.
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My issue starts when you start trying to force that needle in my arm
On principle I’m largely against a government forcing people to do things for “the greater good.”
There is also a documented history of abuses of public trust by the government. The Tuskegee experiments and numerous other horrible experiments were done to various communities like African Americans. Our soldiers have been given drugs and treatments proven, known at the time, or strongly implicated in all sorts of health issues and told they were for their own good or not told what they really got at all.
The government, MIT, and Quaker Oats teamed up to feed radioactive oatmeal to children to study them. Nuclear and biological agents have been released on US cities by the government for testing and “public safety” and caused deaths and other issues.
This is already the case with many public safety measures including many vaccines. Special exemptions exist for covid as well as existing vaccines and health requirements and can be applied for where they are appropriate.
Smoking laws do take away the freedom of smokers, but to ensure everyone has the most rights.
Lots of valid reasons to be skeptical of the government and untested vaccines. No one is forcing the vaccine on general citizens though. You have a choice to make.
You can take the risk on the vaccine and go out and play, or you can sit it out until you are vindicated or decide you feel comfortable getting the shot.
You do NOT get the choice to put the risk on every person you meet because you do not want to take the risk on the vaccine.
If you don’t want the vaccine, don’t take it. If you want to work somewhere or go to school there etc- make your decision what you want more. That’s life. An employer can refuse to hire you if you drink, if you smoke, if you use illegal drugs even. These things aren’t “protected classes” as nor is being an “independent thinker.” Independent thinkers make their decisions based on facts and consequences. If you can’t get hired someplace because you don’t want the shot, choose which you care more about the same as smoker need choose.
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I firmly disagree with this. There is ample evidence that covid vaccines significantly minimise the risk of death for the vaccinated person. There is no evidence that any of these covid vaccines reduce transmission.
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What you wrote is pure propaganda with the false support of "science".
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I am honestly sick of hearing people push this lie.
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I was originally informed that I was medically exempt from getting this vaccine. As in there were actual medical risks for getting it.
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Then the government changed the rules. Because of bullshit like what was just spewed I was informed I would be forced to get the vaccine or potentially lose my job.
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I'm far from the only person who has experienced this.
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I know people who have been denied access to people who are DEAD because they're unvaccinated. They don't get to say goodbye to the people they love.
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Children are told "either your parents give you this, or its their fault you can't play hockey anymore."
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Police have been pulling people over, tackling them to the ground, fining and arresting them in places for not wearing masks.
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Some doctors have been forced to get psychological examinations for suggesting alternate forms of treatment beyond the holy vaccine.
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Others have been forced to get the vaccine just so they can have an income because - OH RIGHT - the government's were also denying financial support to the unvaccinated in some places, and were threatening to tax them.
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This is what people like you continually present over and over as a goddamn "choice."
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And it's as disgusting as it is dishonest.
Not 100% effective is not the same thing as “doesn’t work” as few things including basic medicine or treatments, condoms and birth control, or even other safety measures are “100% effective.”
And it MIGHT all be bullshit anyway- we used to think spirits made people sick and many doctors didn’t believe in germs into the 20th century. So someday, maybe tomorrow even, they’ll say: “we were wrong.”
The common problem there in science is- nothing in science is ever proven right, just likely. Until something is proven wrong, we have to go off the “best we know” and compare the risks if we are wrong to the costs of ignoring what seems right at the time.
People have been fired for drinking on their breaks or before work- but you are legally allowed to drink alcohol in your free time.
As for your belief firing nurses who aren’t vaccinated betrays former “heroes,” if a doctor refuses to wear a mask in surgery or a nurse refuses to wear gloves or wash their hands on duty, are they still fit for the job and that’s ok?
1. I don’t see how a comment on masks applies to vaccines not being legally required. Police aren’t tackling people they think are unvaccinated who are just walking down the street are they? Related issue but separate from this topic.
2. Police use of force against petty crimes is a hot topic and its own topic. I do seem to remember you and certain others who have taken a strong stance against masks having some things to say when the topic of use of force came up around the time of Floyd and BLM.
This is what it feels like when that threat isn’t something that only happens to other people. I do not feel unwarranted force against the maskless or other petty criminals and “activists” is a good thing.
Like I said in other threads on the topic- why are we debating masks and crap when the police might kill you or injure you for a petty crime or suspicion of petty crime? That seems a more pressing and wider reaching topic.
Also you (literally 5 seconds later): I don't see what masks have to do with the vaccine debate.
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If you're going to have double standards, at least try to space them out a bit farther so they're not so glaringly obvious, yea?
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2. Define the crime you're referring to. And also let me know what my stance was about George Floyd and how it's relevant and maybe I'll address whatever insanity you're trying to imply now. I don't actually consider people burning cities to the ground the same as government medical experiments being forced on children the same issue, but i'm apparently an anomaly on that front lol
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Which threat and what people? At the risk of hating my existence for the next several minutes, I will ask you to elaborate
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I understand you are desperate to imply something with this statement, but the lack of clarity involved in which group of people can't relate to what group of people being threatened by whom makes it rather difficult
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The whole concept of "fighting" covid is wrong. We simply need to manage it.
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Regarding how effective vaccines are at minimizing transmission: I don't want to be the person who puts the burden of proof on the other person, but I'm not sure where to go with this. I've searched for hours, and I cannot find any evidence to rationally suggest any measurable change in transmissibility of covid due to vaccination. There are some low volume sample surveys "studies" that imply a difference, but the results vary from 0 to 75% effective. Any accurate scientific study would need to be repeatable with a result range far smaller than 75%. If you know where I can find the real thing, I would be greatly appreciative.
Here are 14 viruses you've forgotten about thanks to vaccines ..
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/diseases/forgot-14-diseases.html
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All of the covid vaccines (so far) are much more similar to what we've commonly called a shot (for example a flu shot).
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The CDC changed the defenition of a vaccine from providing "imunity" to providing "protection" mid covid...... I'll let you come up with a reason why that would be necessary.
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Every single one of the vaccines (exept flu, which is not even close to eradicated) you reference is effective at drastically limiting and even stopping disease transmission. The covid vaccines do not.
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Your argument is true, but you're ladder is up against the wrong building.
You can be fired for any reason except protected class or retaliation. So what they changed in the definition after covid is sort of… pointless. The timing worked out to make a change that needed made anyway since… the flu. Among others. The vaccine doesn’t even grant immunity if we want to play semantics. Your immune system does, a vaccine prompts the response. But again- it’s semantics. So if we call it the “covid shot” or toaster oven or soda or something instead of “vaccine” we can ignore that entire topic.
The military has required a whole bunch of shots and a haircut for at least 70 years. Most schools have required a bunch of shots or exemptions for a few generations already. It is what it is. If you don’t want it- don’t get it.
I got it because my partner wanted to do things again and I needed a card to do them. So, my choice, make them happy and maybe get space hepatitis in 50 years or whatever the hell people are afraid of- or keep unstuck and stay home forever.
And you each get to make that choice too. No one is forcing a needle into your arm. Say no, stay home;
Or say yes and go play. The same way maybe you used to have to finish your lunch before recess or dinner getting desert. Your parents or the school
Weren’t infringing your rights- you had a choice. No one would say: “schools forced food into my child’s body” because they weren’t allowed to play until they ate lunch. Let’s be serious here.
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In response to this outright and absolute lie of the most nefarious kind, I can only offer, from the absolute bottom of my heart, my most sincere and heartfelt "get fucked with every spoke of the devil's pitchfork."
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May you never feel the anxiety and depression people like you force on others when you threaten their jobs, their healthcare, their life, their children. May you never have to choose between putting food on your table or becoming a government guineapig. May you never have to find the corpse of your child from mysterious circumstances. May you never be forced to compromise your religious beliefs. May you never be denied treatment because it doesn't make Pfizer enough money.
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May your partner never use the type of gaslighting you are attempting to do here.
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And may you one day move to a country like Austria so you can experience the idyllic authoritarianism you so eagerly worship.
As an adult, I often must do things I don’t want to do. I’m not necessarily forced to them at gunpoint or anything, but to live the life I want requires sacrifices of other things. We can’t have our way all the time sadly. This is even true if we lived in caves and had no society. Nature forces tough choices on us and being social forces tough choices on us. We decide what is important and the lives we live are in part the result of that, in part other factors we can’t control.
A crappy position. In those moments we are tested and some of us pass and some fail. We get to decide what pass or fail means. Maybe work wants you to use a 5G device and you’re worried about brain cancer, or they require you to sweat pipes full of cadmium waste water. Maybe it’s a shot. Every day, long before covid, people decide these things. Every Amazon order or almost every product ends up as the anxiety of some worker in the world who can either starve or work horrible unsafe conditions for pennies. This issue doesn’t help them, but foxing their issues could help this one no?
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Xvarnah and I have chosen to reject the mandates. Our choice to fight them is just as legitimate as your choice to accept them.
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In order for us to learn from eachother, we have to keep focused on the underlying principals and values in play.
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Interestingly enough, the value i'm fighting for is the right for individual choice. I think the ability for individuals to choose, and the preceeding reasoning leading up to that choice is what makes us uniquely human. I believe that the right to choose (and discuss those choices) is THE right that all other rights are built on top of.
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A corporation cannot take away your right to choose because you can always choose to leave the corporation. Governments have a much more....
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Regarding vaccine mandates: the governments are taking the easy way out by putting citizens in a position where they aren't "forced" to take a vaccine. They hope to disrupt people's lives so much that they "choose" to get vaccinated. What's even worse about this little trick is that it's forcing citizens "businesses and employees" to enforce citizens "anyone who wants to participate in the economy".
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I think I can help you understand where xvarnah and I are coming from: imagine skipping the chicken $hit misdirection and instead imagine a government directly implementing a vaccine mandate. I.e. use the enforcement sections of government (police and military) to go door to door and inject every eligible citizen. You don't have to go far down that road before it gets pretty scary.
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I believe our mandates in their current form are a step closer to a very slippery slope that has tyranny at the bottom.
I also think liberty is a slippery slope. I think what Texas did with its abortion law and what California is doing with “gun insurance” and other states are likely to follow in a similar vein to skirting the law is dangerous and not how the law was intended.
And that’s where I get very worried and what the basis of my contention is- the Supreme Court is allowing the governments of states and the federal government to use Texas SB style bans.
And so while we all focus on face diapers and a little shot that most people aren’t even saying they wouldn’t get- just that they want more research and study before they do….
The larger issues pass by under the radar. The Supreme Court and the mechanisms that exist so that we shouldn’t have to fight constant fuxkery and attempts to grab power are broken. We can argue 90000000 small abuses that could slip down the slope forever, or we could tackle the systemic roots that allow ALL these types of fuxkery to be allowed once every few decades when a reminder is needed.
Like a patient in a hospital bed- you can spend lots of time treating their sores so they don’t get infected and much worse- but if they’re bleeding from the jugular that needs to be treated or you’ll lose them before they could worry about their sores rotting. It doesn’t make sense to me with how dug in everyone is to push an issue largely going nowhere while our democracy bleeds from the neck. We had a (poorly) attempted insurrection- the democracy could have fallen and seen a despot seize the office by force against the will of the people. How much freedom are you guaranteed under a despot? The slope is much more slippery when an elected position is seized by force or coercion. We need to fix the system. That’s my take anyway.
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This cancel culture thing that's been happening over the last few years is the largest threat to out freedom in decades.
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You described the tyranny as a slow, and seemingly inevitable takeover. I tend to think of it as more of a pendulum that is currently almost peaked out on the tyranny side. Real protests are happening (not the paid and organized BLM protests from a couple years ago). And real conversations, just like this one, are happening all over the country.
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Instead, find the people who tell you to take your power back, and to take so much personal responsibility for your own life that you are able to help other people do the same.
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The latter is where you'll find a meaningful life. The former feels good at first but fades as fast as the dopamine after someone gives your FS post a thumbs up :)
As an example- when you describe how to choose role models- your description basically covers all the “leadership” figures we have. In these covid debates people on one side tend to see the other as brain washed- the “sheep” to the “system” and the “sheep” to “conspiracy.”
The word “victim” is politically charged- its semantics. Assault victim? No! “Survivor.”
But if we just look at what the word is saying- a victim is someone who was injured or harmed- someone who “takes your power back” is already painting you as a victim. The fact you need to get your power back illustrates you were or are a victim, unless you gave your power away and changed your mind- it was taken or lost causing you harm or loss.
We read what we want to see in the words of others. 10,000+ couples all have “their song” and it’s the same song- and for each of them it’s their special song that speaks perfectly to them blah blah. We see in the words of speakers what we want. We take what suits us as a message.
Many people have admirable traits, look at the traits a person has that you admire and try to live up to those, but as a whole, placing a person on a pedestal is dangerous. It leads to cults of personality and issues like we have today where people follow their “role models” and “leaders” because they are blinded by who is saying it and not what is really being said.
It is a pragmatic but crappy outlook to ask “what am I getting out of this deal” through life- but it is wise to ask “what is this OTHER PERSON getting?”
People with power or influence with followings generally are adept at using humans as tools to get what they want, and keeping those people appeased.
Knowing what people want and how to offer them what they want in order to get them to act in ways that get YOU what you want is a skill most powerful people have. You can easily get people to act against their own self interest by making them believe that they are acting for it, if you know how and they are willing to fall for it or wanting desperately enough what you offer.
This is the trap people fall into. The simplest way to spring that trap is to get people to fixate on minute and ultimately irrelevant or insignificant details. By giving crumbs they can distract you while they sneak the main course off the table all for themselves. Then you thank them for returning the crumbs to you.
A narrow vision can’t see anything but what it is fixated on.
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The mandate people are the ones trying to tell people otherwise.
-You now must drive this specific car and ONLY this specific car. We assure you this car is much safer than your original car. It has no proven protections and the engine may occasionally explode. You need not concern yourself with such things.
-You must also stop at toll booths multiple times anytime you leave the house to prove you are in this type of car.
-A portion of the population has difficulty driving at night. Therefore none of you will be permitted to drive at night moving forward. This is for your protection.
-Failure to comply will result in immediate removal of access to all motor vehicles, suspension of license, fines, and potential jail time.
-It is completely your choice to not comply. You can always walk to work, school, home, the store, and anywhere else you may need to be.
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- we have discovered that your car has no seatbelts
- get a new car, get seatbelts for your current car or don't drive your current car
- take the bus instead if you have to
-you can ride the bus wherever you need to go, provided you prove you have one of our seatbelts in your car
Vaccines are supposed to stop you from getting it. We all know they don't with the current variants.
Since they don't, how can you mandate something that doesn't stop the spread?
Did the covid vaccines do that? No.
So how can you mandate them and have people lose their jobs over it.
That said, no vaccine is completely effective. Seat belts and air bags aren’t completely effective either. People still die in crashes. People still get hurt. Seatbelts actually kill people and injure people sometimes in cases where they would have been fine- women have a higher chance than most men- but seatbelts can slit your throat in even a relatively minor crash. Seatbelts can and do often cause compression injuries to the neck, shoulders, ribs, and spine.
We mandate seatbelts even though they aren’t 100% effective or anywhere near it. Even though in some cases they cause more harm than good.
Vaccination has been linked to an overall decline in deaths and severe cases in vaccinated populations.
You can argue those declines are from other things like viral mutations etc- but we can also argue accident injuring drops after seatbelts are caused by other improved technology on modern cars like better brakes and chassis design or safety systems like TCS and ABS or even we could argue people have become better drivers on average (not saying that’s true- we could argue that’s why though…)
But it’s kinda moot- you can be declined a job or fired from your job as a teacher for getting a face tattoo that says “legalize abortion” even though both those things are freedoms you have to self express. You can be fired for refusing a TB vaccine or for pissing hot after your day off. How is this so different?
Not in most professions. That's a cherry picked small percentage argument.
I work for a video game company that as of April are forcing you. Fucking we can be 100% remote and have been for 2 years with record profits, but it's the control aspect.
The vaccine doesn't stop the spread, boosters or not you still get it. TB vaccine stops you from getting it, big big difference.
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Right now if you get fired from your job over covid vaccines the government has applied pressure if not all out shut down companies who do not have their employees forcibly vaccinated.
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They were talking about and in some places implementing a denial of any social welfare programs if your reason for termination was being unvaccinated.
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They additionally were planning on taxing the unvaccinated to put additional financial pressure on people - despite the fact that they do not tax any other group for their perceived medical ineptitude.
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One is a personal choice - which you could potentially be sued over. The other a government mandated discrimination clause.
Sucks to lose your job. Don’t wish that on almost anyone. Guess life is full of questions. Do you choose to exercise your freedom to smoke weed or do meth and maybe lose your job? Do you choose to refuse the shot and maybe lose your job? I guess it depends what you believe and what is important to you and what your integrity is worth.