I don’t think much of what happens in politics or business for our best interests. Most people tend to do what is in their best interest- the more powerful or rich a person is the better they probably generally are at looking out for their own best interests- that’s how you get and maintain such wealth or power.
People tend to group together when what other people want serves our interests in some way- but even when that is true- just because we are “allied” on one issue doesn’t mean the other party doesn’t have goals that are ultimately against our best interests. The “Western democracies” and Soviets shared a mutual interest in the defeat of the Nazis- but the Soviets ultimate goals were not shared for example. The Nazis were a socialist organization with many conservative social values- but most conservatives and most socialists have not seen it wise to ally with the Nazis or later offshoot ideologies as their ultimate goals are too incompatible even if they share a few views.
It’s not really much of a “conspiracy” to identify that a group founded to influence policy to their interests is doing exactly that, but this is where those mutual interests come in- is it that all mandates serve a “reset” or that a reset benefits from mandates and mandates were determined to be beneficial to the goals of others? Remember- nothing about covid mandates is really about YOU- the governments don’t really want to save YOUR life, they want to save the MOST lives or specific demographics and preserve a functioning economy. That’s less a conspiracy and more the cold calculus of prudence. The moral question of the “cable car dilemma” is debatable but the practical answer tends to always be to sacrifice the few for the many. I’m not saying this is right- but it is what the math supports if one’s priority is to maintain a general status.
Usually, a “conspiracy” on a large scale boils down to a bunch of people (usually rich and/or powerful ones) who happen to share some goals. It makes sense that what is good for one like person tends to be good for another like person- if you ask welders if they support a raise for welders- most welders will agree. If most welders are working towards getting a raise for welders, the individual actions of each will become part of a larger whole with or without any collusion or coordination.
It’s somewhat academic anyway- or a bit ironic. Eventually most people will have to live with less as time goes on. The world only has so much space, so many resources. As populations increase and more people who have “less” get things like cars and running water and medicine- there is less for others to hoard and what they can have decreases on average.
We have been borrowing from the future and from others to pay a lifestyle beyond what most of the planet gets to enjoy. The bill will come due.
Eventually, if not us, the next generation or so many after will have to pay for what has been borrowed. Nothing on earth under our current ability and knowledge can scale infinitely. The question of note is generally not wether people will do without, but WHO does without and WHO decides that. this is how it’s essentially always been and is the leading cause of conflict in human history.
No one needs to “take” from us if we were to give up what needed given to sustain an enduring and growing global population, but the problem with self interest is most of us our short sighted, we act today on desire with little or no thought to the cost to us or others later. The fundamental question of philosophy is wether an individual life or an individuals wants are more important than a society or a species. Many people and even cultures have their own biases to this question and there isn’t really a single answer that is universally accepted.
Overall, for one’s self interest is it is right to be suspicious of those who seek power as they most often seek it for their own purposes. Since we are all different the odds that even someone you agree with on most things has the same idea of a “perfect world” as you are slim- so of course we need to be wary when others try to bend the world to their vision- but at the same time, on some scale we are doing the same. Trying to bend the world so it fits our desires. We are no more innocent of this than any government or cabal.
I think concerning the WEF, the fact that corporations and governments have interactions with an NGO is no more a sign of a conspiracy than to say that because your neighbor pays the gas bill and their cousin works for a contractor for the gas company that your neighbor was behind your rate increases.
It’s just easier to latch on to simple. Pick a name, pick a blame, build the connections, like on your fears, and the world makes sense…..
At the end of the day, someone just wants to be left alone and someone else doesn't wanna leave them alone.
Sometimes it's theft. Slavery. Murder. Rape.
It's always wrong.
@ernster- concerning perhaps. Certainly something to be aware of. Wether one is concerned with something or not is personal, depending on many factors. I generally don’t get too worked up over such things. There’s thousands of groups and billions of people out there trying to work their agendas. Most with any chance of success are well aware of social engineering and know exactly how to get well meaning people to believe they are serving their own interests by advancing those of another. The present state of division in the US for example has served and been fanned by foreign actors who don’t particularly care about XYZ issue- they merely need the country divided and distracted- so those running out to fight the good fight as their instincts or values demand, end up as soldiers of a foreign power working their will. The best way to win such games is not half hearted. Revolutions are all in or don’t play at all- and unless you happen to be the one pulling strings you still likely lose.
@famousone- perhaps. “Always” and such absolutes don’t work well logically. We take from others even when we think we are “minding our own business.” The smoker at the cafe takes the ability of others to enjoy their meals, but to ban smoking takes the smokers ability to have their smoke. The person playing their music loudly wants to enjoy it while another wants to enjoy quiet. The person wanting to build their dream car or the farmer wanting to burn their field are destroying the air the rest of us breath. Who decides who gets to “be left alone” and who gets to do as they please? If one truly wants to be left alone- they wouldn’t be participating in a society- unless they merely wanted to benefit from others without giving anything up- which is exploitive at best and tyranny at worst of it is forced.
As for your list- I would say rape is always wrong- but who stops the rapist? Who decides what rape is? Is theft always wrong? We’d think so- but do we live that? The United States and many others are nations founded on theft and murder- that’s wrong, but I don’t see a lot of people denouncing their claims to land or moving to Antarctica over it. So then- what does it matter something is “wrong” if when we benefit from it we do nothing? We return to self interest. These high minded moral crusades are rarely ever about the morals no matter how much people stamp their feet and say they are. If that’s so, why do so many people only act on “wrong” that threatens the way they think the world should be or that costs them, and leave in place the “wrongs” that benefit them? If the majority of people voted for socialism or communism- would it be “right” for the minority of those seeing a threat to freedom to stand against?
That’s a big question when we talk “right and wrong” and these things. A system that ignores a minority for a majority doesn’t serve individual freedom- but a system that puts a majority needs behind a minority needs is unjust. People complain about our present system where the rich have unfair advantage and control- but most don’t seek to eliminate this privilege- just to move it to “people like them.” A group of “freedom fighters” tried to overthrow a legitimate election because they didn’t like the outcome and thought that in this case, their fellow people outnumbering them made the wrong choice, or that an election was rigged. More rigged than an election secured via mob? That’s the price to live in a society, in a world with others you don’t control- you are never “alone” because whatever you do may effect others even if you don’t realize it.
I suppose it’s relative. More questions than points- that’s usually the way of a proper discussion- questions as opposed to just hammering points.
One might also say if one can’t explain a stance, must rely on over simplifications, deflections, or rhetoric- there may not be much substance beneath the surface.
One could also say that if one isn’t willing to discuss a matter in depth, one probably doesn’t actually care very much for the subject, or intend to discuss as much as just wanting to have their opinion be heard without listening.
One could say those things- I’m not going to, I didn’t come here to critique how you choose to present your thoughts- even if you really just like to do so to others.
I blame the livestream footage but for some reason I can't get this part of the song out of my head:
.
"Oh, you're so condescending
Your gall is never ending
We don't want nothin', not a thing from you
Your life is trite and jaded
Boring and confiscated
If that's your best, your best won't do"
It’s up to you who you want to be. I’m not here to trash talk users, I came to a meme inviting discussion on a topic to discuss that topic. If you’d like to discuss the topic we can, if you want to gossip and slander I will leave you to it, I am not interested in that.
Just please remember the next time you want to post about my being off topic or such your own behaviors.
I didn’t see xvarnah or famousone calling out the “disingenuous” comments famous made about voting Putin out- so please don’t pretend to stand on morality when making your barbs as they are quite obviously intended to be personal.
I hope you both have a good rest of your day, and perhaps we will be able to discuss ideas in a future thread. Or not. I leave it to you to decide how you want to behave.
I could say I'm just asking questions. Trying to have a discussion.
But I'm not.
I'm out of goodwill. I'm done tolerating intolerance.
I tried treating others the way I want to be treated. And I won't debase myself to treating others the way they treat me.
So here I am. Fresh out of olive branches and done being the bigger man for appearance's sake.
Go ahead and think you're the center of attention. Write all the essays you want.
Draw all the false equivalencies, mock up all the strawmen, keep with your thinly veiled insults and open condescension.
I'm not going to argue the validity of the individual, or liberty itself. I'm just gonna shoot the next clown to think they get to vote or mandate me into slavery or subservience.
In the meantime? I won't be defending tyrants or excusing oppression, unlike the "man" (or woman) you see in the mirror. Scare quotes because how much of a man is anyone who speaks against individuality itself?
Honk honk.
Every single time Guest_ gets called out on his tactics of being a condescending ass he pretends everyone else is the problem and at this point I think he should just run for prime minister of canada
As I said- not interested in tossing names about and insults. Not here for that. If you feel threatened, small, because of my worlds @famousone- I can’t change your feelings or self views. I’ve told you before and can only tell you again- you are good enough, you do have value, you don’t need to seek my acknowledgment or approval, and I’m not here to tear you down, I’m here to discuss ideas.
If talking about me or if for you and xvarnah this is how you feel a sense of power etc- wether that’s healthy or not is subjective, but you’re free to discuss me to your hearts content of course.
I wouldn’t want to even try to take that away from you if that’s what you feel you need to get through things, I would just say that I’d hope you could find the value in yourself where you didn’t need to tear others down to feel good.
Again, no hard feelings from me, I wish you both well and hope you find a place where you can be happy.
Like I said- your call on how you behave. If you ever want to discuss the issues of a post l, feel free to tag me so I know to reply, otherwise- it’s called funsubstance- so if it is fun for you to talk about me, knock yourself out. For me, more interesting things in the world than myself.
" if it is fun for you to talk about me, knock yourself out. For me, more interesting things in the world than myself."
.
You've been talking about yourself for the last 3 posts mate.
@xvarnah- actually- I’ve been responding to others talking about me. On the one hand, I don’t want to be rude and ignore the post chain, but on the other hand, as I said- not really interested in talking about me, and while you both seem to enjoy sharing your opinions and thoughts about me, I’m not just going to respond in kind and start saying whatever negative things I can about you both. That’s not a discussion I want to have. I’m also not going to frame things in “you” statements- I’m not here to gossip or attack anyone. So I am using “me” statements as much as practical to frame my feelings on the issue and not make assumptions, accusations, or attacks.
As said before- I’m not here to attack or argue, perhaps debate or challenge- I have no interest in making it personal beyond personal opinions on topics of discussions or positive such as the support to posts like famousones recent post where myself and others came to say his presence is valued. Yours is too xvarnah.
@ernster there's a petition to stop the emergency acts. Idk exactly how effective it would be given how much foreign influence is invested in the WEF and how corrupt Canadian parliament has become, but I wanted to mention it.
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Not gonna tell you to sign or not, and not gonna ask if you did, just wanted to let you know it exists
.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PierrePoilievre/status/1495483086225788929
People tend to group together when what other people want serves our interests in some way- but even when that is true- just because we are “allied” on one issue doesn’t mean the other party doesn’t have goals that are ultimately against our best interests. The “Western democracies” and Soviets shared a mutual interest in the defeat of the Nazis- but the Soviets ultimate goals were not shared for example. The Nazis were a socialist organization with many conservative social values- but most conservatives and most socialists have not seen it wise to ally with the Nazis or later offshoot ideologies as their ultimate goals are too incompatible even if they share a few views.
It’s somewhat academic anyway- or a bit ironic. Eventually most people will have to live with less as time goes on. The world only has so much space, so many resources. As populations increase and more people who have “less” get things like cars and running water and medicine- there is less for others to hoard and what they can have decreases on average.
We have been borrowing from the future and from others to pay a lifestyle beyond what most of the planet gets to enjoy. The bill will come due.
No one needs to “take” from us if we were to give up what needed given to sustain an enduring and growing global population, but the problem with self interest is most of us our short sighted, we act today on desire with little or no thought to the cost to us or others later. The fundamental question of philosophy is wether an individual life or an individuals wants are more important than a society or a species. Many people and even cultures have their own biases to this question and there isn’t really a single answer that is universally accepted.
I think concerning the WEF, the fact that corporations and governments have interactions with an NGO is no more a sign of a conspiracy than to say that because your neighbor pays the gas bill and their cousin works for a contractor for the gas company that your neighbor was behind your rate increases.
It’s just easier to latch on to simple. Pick a name, pick a blame, build the connections, like on your fears, and the world makes sense…..
Sometimes it's theft. Slavery. Murder. Rape.
It's always wrong.
One might also say if one can’t explain a stance, must rely on over simplifications, deflections, or rhetoric- there may not be much substance beneath the surface.
One could also say that if one isn’t willing to discuss a matter in depth, one probably doesn’t actually care very much for the subject, or intend to discuss as much as just wanting to have their opinion be heard without listening.
One could say those things- I’m not going to, I didn’t come here to critique how you choose to present your thoughts- even if you really just like to do so to others.
.
"Oh, you're so condescending
Your gall is never ending
We don't want nothin', not a thing from you
Your life is trite and jaded
Boring and confiscated
If that's your best, your best won't do"
Just please remember the next time you want to post about my being off topic or such your own behaviors.
I didn’t see xvarnah or famousone calling out the “disingenuous” comments famous made about voting Putin out- so please don’t pretend to stand on morality when making your barbs as they are quite obviously intended to be personal.
I hope you both have a good rest of your day, and perhaps we will be able to discuss ideas in a future thread. Or not. I leave it to you to decide how you want to behave.
But I'm not.
I'm out of goodwill. I'm done tolerating intolerance.
I tried treating others the way I want to be treated. And I won't debase myself to treating others the way they treat me.
So here I am. Fresh out of olive branches and done being the bigger man for appearance's sake.
Go ahead and think you're the center of attention. Write all the essays you want.
Draw all the false equivalencies, mock up all the strawmen, keep with your thinly veiled insults and open condescension.
I'm not going to argue the validity of the individual, or liberty itself. I'm just gonna shoot the next clown to think they get to vote or mandate me into slavery or subservience.
In the meantime? I won't be defending tyrants or excusing oppression, unlike the "man" (or woman) you see in the mirror. Scare quotes because how much of a man is anyone who speaks against individuality itself?
Honk honk.
If talking about me or if for you and xvarnah this is how you feel a sense of power etc- wether that’s healthy or not is subjective, but you’re free to discuss me to your hearts content of course.
I wouldn’t want to even try to take that away from you if that’s what you feel you need to get through things, I would just say that I’d hope you could find the value in yourself where you didn’t need to tear others down to feel good.
Again, no hard feelings from me, I wish you both well and hope you find a place where you can be happy.
.
You've been talking about yourself for the last 3 posts mate.
Edit, meant for guest. To xvarnah I say: Right?
As said before- I’m not here to attack or argue, perhaps debate or challenge- I have no interest in making it personal beyond personal opinions on topics of discussions or positive such as the support to posts like famousones recent post where myself and others came to say his presence is valued. Yours is too xvarnah.
.
Not gonna tell you to sign or not, and not gonna ask if you did, just wanted to let you know it exists
.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PierrePoilievre/status/1495483086225788929