I mean… circumcision is a touchy topic. It is a form of genital mutilation most often performed on babies without consent of the party the organ belongs to. There are arguments that state it has benefits and arguments that state it really doesn’t and counter arguments to both.
The predominate reasons for the practice are rooted in culture and tradition and “benefits” are just a justification generally, regardless of they are real or not. When you consider that many benefits like helping prevent the spread of HPV or other such things weren’t known or knowable until modern times and that any sort of infection risk could he argued to be offset by the medial abilities and general hygiene or conditions in past times- it gets a touch flimsy. That isn’t an argument against circumcision- certain breeds of dog get their tails or ears clipped and we regularly remove “dew claws,” some cultures bind feet or elongate necks or stretch gauges and ornaments into ears or lips. So it is what it is.
When my son was born, we had to sign papers agreeing that we did *not* want our child circumcised. I was appalled.
As I understand it, today is different. But I can’t shake the alarm that parents are so readily backed into this situation where they think they are doing the right thing by mutilating their babies.
I do think the idea that there would be a default, or at least that the default would be to the essentially irreversible vs. that which is essentially always an option, is far less than ideal with this topic. If they changed that I’m glad. It certainly does indicate a cultural bias towards circumcision- about 1/3rd of males are circumcised globally but certain countries which can largely be predicted by religious faith/history tend to make up the majority.
If a child decides to get circumcised at an age where they can give informed consent or if one is medically indicated I have nothing against it. I will leave the subject of religious practice alone as that is a complex and sensitive topic, but I will also say that there is evidence, wether one chooses to put stock in it, that there can be actual benefits to the practice. Are those benefits worth it..? I think it is nice to have the choice for one’s self, but I do understand it’s complex and my personal morality isn’t universal.
If ritualistic genital mutilation happens to girls it's considered an archaic and barbarian practise but if it happens to boys it's perfectly fine. It's a tradition which is just peer pressure by dead people. For more information why happy foreskin chopping is still all the rage in the USA just watch that season 1, episode 2 of Adam Ruins Everything.
*to be clear* I don’t support any sort of unconsensual genital alteration.
That said, there is a big difference between a clitorectomy and removal of foreskin. Men without foreskin are still able to have fulfilling orgasms. Women that have had purity mutilations performed are generally unable to have orgasms and often unable to have enjoyable sex.
Both mutilations are problematic, but there is a difference.
I also agree that the CONCEPT that we would find one type of genital mutilation acceptable and another repugnant is there, but as Roanoke says- the REALITY is different. Your kid doesn’t belong to you and can’t give informed consent but if you kids your kid- some parents even do so on the lips(!?), you’re not likely to go to jail. Kiss your kids friend or a random kid and you may have problems… so in CONCEPT there isn’t a reason why it’s ok to kiss your child and not just ANY child- but in reality the math makes sense.
If you bathe with any regularity, there is nothing unsanitary about having that bit of skin. Just was your business.
No shame in being cut. No shame in being uncut. Just know, be aware, it is entirely a cosmetic procedure.
If your personal habits or circumstances preclude good hygiene you can have issues like odor or infection, the latter of which can lead to the need for circumcision. It’s also possible to develop or be born with a condition with or without infection where the foreskin is too tight and cannot properly retract which can prevent proper hygiene and lead to pain relating to sexual or other activity when one becomes mature- and so a circumcision may be warranted later.
Of course that’s a bit like removing parts of the body to prevent the possibility of cancer or other issues- adults may generally choose to do these things but we seldom remove things from children and teens “just in case” without good reason. Surgeries carry their own risks and subjecting someone to unnecessary procedures they can’t consent to is generally unwise and unethical.
That said there is evidence that HPV- a virus linked to cervical cancer in women, and certain other STI can be more easily carried or transmitted via foreskin, though one can debate wether that evidence equates to fact or offers any benefit worth the cost; and one can also debate wether that would be “unsanitary.”
The extra flap of skin.. I mean make nipples are basically extra skin without function asides possibly pleasure- so arguably with less benefit than foreskin. And earlobes are a flap of skin that serves no known biological function, but we don’t remove those because they are a flap of skin with the potential to be unsanitary.
As Roanoke says- if one washes their genitals and exercises proper hygiene such as cleaning after urinating and not placing their member in unsanitary conditions, changing underwear etc. foreskin is no less sanitary and can even contribute to keeping the glans sanitary in theory.
As to possible carrying if STI’s- if one exercises prudence and safe sex with partners, any possible risk of carrying such STI’s is essentially equal to that of any circumcised person who exercises prudence and safe sex; and likely less than the risks from a circumcised person who engages in sex with many partners without discrimination or safe sex Barriers to STI’s.
TL:DR- if you’re a dirty d*cked person, it doesn’t matter if you are or aren’t snipped. Dirty people tend to have dirty homes wether they live in a trailer or a mansion and clean people tend have clean homes regardless.
Circumcision makes it easier to keep your member clean, or at least from becoming so filthy as to be completely putrid. In that sense, one might even say that being uncircumcised may encourage proper hygiene as one can be more prone to infection or UTI (urinary tract infection) if one is not circumcised and doesn’t maintain their hygiene and handle their member with clean practices in mind.
I recommend you read about David Reimer and come back to the reason why dialog. Yes, there are conditions that make circumcision seem beneficial/necessary. It is not always purely cosmetic. But, as a default, it is not necessary.
We have a vaccine for HPV. I know vaccines are scary, but a young person could have a vaccine and. Or require a surgery. Isn’t that a good trade off?
Ultimately, surgical procedures carry risk, even if the risk is low.
I do not disagree. I literally said that same thing, if not here than one of these other threads here. The HPV vaccine is available for men and women and is generally a smart move- probably smarter than cutting off skin to POSSIBLY get some small measure of protection. As said- IF one believes all the potential medical or health benefits of circumcision- there isn’t anything there that can’t be easily had some other way.
Safe and smart sex is probably best since if you’re in a situation where the HPV vaccine might help- you’re probably in a situation where you can also get HIV, and there’s no effective vaccine for that out quite yet.
I mean your wisdom teeth don’t do much either and there really is no benefit to taking them out unless they get infected or there are signs they are likely to cause problems. It’s up to a person if they want to remove them anyway- but if you don’t need them removed you probably wouldn’t go through the pain and expense to do so simply because some people think the extra teeth look funny or because they are extra teeth to brush and floss or else they may be unhygienic. You just take care of them like any other teeth and generally leave them be unless there is an issue or signs of high risk of an issue.
As also said before- people can pierce and tattoo and modify their bodies as they see fit- but there are series ethical concerns to performing body modifications on a baby even if you figure they’ll end up doing it later so it’s better to save the time. But… that’s just my view. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
I’m with you on that. Nothing says a circumcision can’t be performed at any time!
Regarding wisdom teeth, did you know that more and more people don’t grow them?? It’s much more common now than ever before to not have wisdom teeth and it’s been suggested that eventually wisdom teeth will be uncommon.
@roanoke - I did not know that, but I am thankful you told me! That’s rather neat to live through such an observable change to the species. One has to shed a small tear at least for the profession of dentistry that stands to lose a source of regular income- but I think they’ll still be busy enough.
@typow777 - I may have met someone similar in life without knowing, but this is the first time I can remember knowing someone who didn’t get wisdom teeth. So I think that’s pretty cool that not only did you not have to go through the discomfort of them growing in, but the potential for the experience of having them removed. And depending on where you live… the possible cost! I think that is the pain that has stayed with me more than the extraction of mine.
The predominate reasons for the practice are rooted in culture and tradition and “benefits” are just a justification generally, regardless of they are real or not. When you consider that many benefits like helping prevent the spread of HPV or other such things weren’t known or knowable until modern times and that any sort of infection risk could he argued to be offset by the medial abilities and general hygiene or conditions in past times- it gets a touch flimsy. That isn’t an argument against circumcision- certain breeds of dog get their tails or ears clipped and we regularly remove “dew claws,” some cultures bind feet or elongate necks or stretch gauges and ornaments into ears or lips. So it is what it is.
As I understand it, today is different. But I can’t shake the alarm that parents are so readily backed into this situation where they think they are doing the right thing by mutilating their babies.
If a child decides to get circumcised at an age where they can give informed consent or if one is medically indicated I have nothing against it. I will leave the subject of religious practice alone as that is a complex and sensitive topic, but I will also say that there is evidence, wether one chooses to put stock in it, that there can be actual benefits to the practice. Are those benefits worth it..? I think it is nice to have the choice for one’s self, but I do understand it’s complex and my personal morality isn’t universal.
That said, there is a big difference between a clitorectomy and removal of foreskin. Men without foreskin are still able to have fulfilling orgasms. Women that have had purity mutilations performed are generally unable to have orgasms and often unable to have enjoyable sex.
Both mutilations are problematic, but there is a difference.
No shame in being cut. No shame in being uncut. Just know, be aware, it is entirely a cosmetic procedure.
Of course that’s a bit like removing parts of the body to prevent the possibility of cancer or other issues- adults may generally choose to do these things but we seldom remove things from children and teens “just in case” without good reason. Surgeries carry their own risks and subjecting someone to unnecessary procedures they can’t consent to is generally unwise and unethical.
As Roanoke says- if one washes their genitals and exercises proper hygiene such as cleaning after urinating and not placing their member in unsanitary conditions, changing underwear etc. foreskin is no less sanitary and can even contribute to keeping the glans sanitary in theory.
As to possible carrying if STI’s- if one exercises prudence and safe sex with partners, any possible risk of carrying such STI’s is essentially equal to that of any circumcised person who exercises prudence and safe sex; and likely less than the risks from a circumcised person who engages in sex with many partners without discrimination or safe sex Barriers to STI’s.
Circumcision makes it easier to keep your member clean, or at least from becoming so filthy as to be completely putrid. In that sense, one might even say that being uncircumcised may encourage proper hygiene as one can be more prone to infection or UTI (urinary tract infection) if one is not circumcised and doesn’t maintain their hygiene and handle their member with clean practices in mind.
We have a vaccine for HPV. I know vaccines are scary, but a young person could have a vaccine and. Or require a surgery. Isn’t that a good trade off?
Ultimately, surgical procedures carry risk, even if the risk is low.
Safe and smart sex is probably best since if you’re in a situation where the HPV vaccine might help- you’re probably in a situation where you can also get HIV, and there’s no effective vaccine for that out quite yet.
As also said before- people can pierce and tattoo and modify their bodies as they see fit- but there are series ethical concerns to performing body modifications on a baby even if you figure they’ll end up doing it later so it’s better to save the time. But… that’s just my view. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Regarding wisdom teeth, did you know that more and more people don’t grow them?? It’s much more common now than ever before to not have wisdom teeth and it’s been suggested that eventually wisdom teeth will be uncommon.
@typow777 - I may have met someone similar in life without knowing, but this is the first time I can remember knowing someone who didn’t get wisdom teeth. So I think that’s pretty cool that not only did you not have to go through the discomfort of them growing in, but the potential for the experience of having them removed. And depending on where you live… the possible cost! I think that is the pain that has stayed with me more than the extraction of mine.