Hey Funsubstance folks - sorry to hear you have to deal with such crap. I come here because it IS fun and mostly lighthearted. Thanks for all your hard work. :)
But something that's been bothering me and many other users (and some guests). Can we get even a vague explanation as to why the issue of bullying doesn't seem to merit much attention? We don't care about the fact that top users were banned. We care about the fact that the systemic bullying and harassment had reached a crisis point but nothing visible was done. You may have somehow contacted the guest (which I'm not sure is possible) and it didn't listen, but when a huge issue like this happens we'd like to know what is going to happen and why as according to the rules and terms of service. Of course, we don't expect (or want) the admins to take a hand in every conflict and/or personal issue.
Which raises another question.
At what point do the admins deem it necessary to intercede?
So perhaps I should boil down this mess a bit. Will it be made publicly known (sort of like a public warning) that the terms of use are being broken? No name and shame necessary, just every now and then you admins could make a general post about how the atmosphere is getting a bit unfriendly and to tone it down a bit? Copy verbatim from the rules list as to which are being broken? I trust that almost all of us are smart enough to realize to whom a general statement is being made to.
Thays actually a good idea. Habing said that, do you yhink the admins should also send some sort of warning to the users (and guests too if possible) who are breaking the rules or just being mean? A warning to tone it down or to stop unless they want to lose their account.
We deal with every case of bullying/harassment that comes to our attention. The lack of visible evidence on your part does not mean a lack of action on our part.
More importantly, you have to understand that the Internet is free for all. Cyber bullying/harassment is a difficult problem that even big companies like Facebook cannot eliminate. We believe that as the community grows bigger, such conflicts will be reduced and we (you and me) will be able to respond faster to threats.
People are often led by their emotion. Appealing to them rationally does not work as seen in recent prolific events. Users blatantly wrecked havoc despite warnings from their peers.
thanks for this official response. Although I agree that the Internet is open to all, I believe that having a more visible presence will reduce the severity of ToS breaking drama. For example, I referee soccer. When players become overly aggressive, I make my presence known. They don't technically commit fouls so I can't penalize them, but I get closer to play and verbally let them know I'm watching to keep the unnecessary roughness down. I don't expect you admins to even bother with non-ToS breaking comments and posts, but when we come close to or break the ToS I (and others) would really appreciate a comment by an admin letting us know that the discussion/actions are getting close to breaking the rules. It helps your public image because there is a user-visible sign and it maintains public order.
I almost forgot. Cyberstalking is a federal offense in the U.S. Even though FS is based somewhere in Asia IIRC, can we US users ask the US law enforcement to intercede in cases of cyberstalking/cyber bullying and have the FS admin cooperation?
Thanks admin for responding, we truly appreciate your work. Hopefully we'll all learn as a whole and work towards making this a better community. Much love for the gods ♡♡♡
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2261A https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2261
Here's the US law on stalking.
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/vaw00/cyberstalking_laws.html
However, from what I understand, merely harassing without threat (and inciting harassment without threat) over a website unfortunately isn't covered under the law. If it's without threat, it must be through phone or text (only?). However, I'll contact my local police department and ask on the "official" interpretation, how to invoke it, and what it means for you admins and then get back to you.
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Although you have no affiliation with the Funsubstance kik chats and other third party chat rooms, those services may be considered a "texting" environment because it's not "publicly" available for people to post on, unlike forums or here on FS. If this is the case, how far would you be willing to help stop cyberstalking?
Oh, and slightly unrelated to this reply thread. I know someone has links to some screenshots of bookhoarder's and guest's side of the stories, and I believe someone also has screenshots of the massive drama that happened. Could you send me links (or if they're pics I can post my email temporarily) so I can give them to the police/lawyer/whoever they redirect me to so they can see if the law could have been brought in to control that "situation"?
Not only do I have their sides of the story, but I also have a screenshot(s) of the users at the time. (The guest said he/she had an account and had a star, but I don't know if it was true.)
.
bookhoarder's side of the story:
http://tinyurl.com/o24vlvd
guests side of the story:
http://tinyurl.com/pbkkcx6
.
If you need anymore of screenshots, they're kind of unrelated, but they're from what happened.
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Edited 8 years ago
deleted
· 8 years ago
Ahem
https://funsubstance.com/fun/254043/new-idea-and-its-bookhoarder/
Scroll down to bookhoarder's post as a guest and click on 'read more'
Remember that now it's too late to enforce that stuff with federal power, but good on you for trying to understand what qualifies
Also, I don't know what we should do with the feds and all but we do need to think about it.
Yeah, I don't know if that was true, but he/she also said he/she had a star as well. And because of that, I decided at the time to screenshot the people who had a star at the time.
oh no I don't want any further action to be taken on the BH case. That can of worms is nicely sealed and buried. This is just so theres an example as to what could happen so we all know what we can do in the event of something else like this.
Dude this was way deeper and had more drama then I expected. It was like a plot from naruto or something like wow. Kinda like how everyone thought madara(in this case mgoviea) came back and started messing up people but it was actually obito(or evil guest) impersonating madara doing so only because he had to repay madara and girl problems. Now we wait for Madara Goviea to come back from the dead for for reals this time and try to ban all of us.. Wow I can't wait for that to happen.
I have received a response (several days ago) from my local police department. I've already forwarded the email to the admins (please respond/comment confirming receipt), and I shall copypasta here what was written to me for the edification of all us users and guests. Keep in mind this is Washington State law.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.61.260
I am a Detective Sgt. with the Bothell Police Department and will try to answer some of your questions and provide some resources for your information.
Please keep in mind that you have asked several questions that have a varied response from Law Enforcement that you could receive from different states and of course countries. It is also difficult to answer without seeing the exact words of the conversation as well as the intent of the venue these discussion have taken place in.
I will provide my contact information at the end and encourage you to call me or provide me a phone number to call you so we could hold a more fluid conversation versus question and answer via email.
I have added some of you specific questions below and tried to address them separately.
What is the official interpretation of the US cyberbullying/cyberstalking laws?
The City of Bothell Police Department in the State of Washington enforces and charges crimes under the guidance of the REVISED CODES OF WASHINGTON (RCW’s). You can search RCW’s (Revised Codes of Washington) and will have access to all the statutes listed under Washington State law.
The below link will direct you specifically to “Cyberstalking” for your reference.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.61.260
Keep in mind that there are many discussion groups/chat rooms that exist on the internet. There is more freedom provided in these volunteer participants “chat groups” that may not exist if you were holding a discussion in some other format with an individual that did not choose to participate in a discussion.
How can I (and others) invoke it if the victim is from the US but the aggressor is from an unknown place, while the website itself is hosted outside the US?
As I stated above the best way to address this question would be that the “victim” call and speak with their local law enforcement to share the specific information to determine if a crime has occurred and if it is possible for law enforcement to follow up on it. There are obvious challenges that criminal investigation follow up may not be practicable based on the type of crime and if a possible suspect is in another state or even more challenging, if outside of the United States.
My advice would be to have “bookhoarder” contact their local law enforcement to specifically explain what took place to see if it would fall under a criminal offense. So many different factors can change a situation in order for it to be criminal or non-criminal. The prosecutors and law enforcement will have a tough time charging and prosecuting a case if the victim is not willing to assist or testify later in a criminal trial. Some crimes fall under “Mandatory” filing or arrest but the list of those offenses are short and I do not think cyberstalking/cyberbullying fall under mandatory arrest or charging in any state of the U.S.
This concludes the email. Thanks admins for being patient with us mortals, and I hope these posts will provide some light into cyberbullying for us Washingtonians (and everyone else).
I've been on here for a while and I come here still simply for the content, I think all the drama and bullshit with the users on here is detrimental to the growth of this site's community, when I first started it was simply just about posting fun pictures that's it and now I don't even know anymore
Hey, don't loose faith. Funsubstance may not be the place it was before but nothing stays the same. Besides, funsub has a great community, you know there'll always be someone around to stick up for you. That's one of the reasons why you've gotta love it.
Thanks for this. One small question - has the character limit for comments been reduced? It used to be 1000, but I think it might be a bit less now.....?
Have you considered restricting guest rights be disallowing them to comment? A good portion of problems that occur happen because some guest is spreading hate. Your thoughts on that?
I think we just need a "don't feed the troll guidelines". A few here fall for the bait and well...20 comments of drama later. I'm pretty sure many of the trolls will leave as soon as no one falls to take the bait (exceptions could be the troll really has nothing better to do and doesn't have a life to take care of but that's a few). Trolls thrive on how many take their baits and just keep on going from there.
Also, I really don't have a problem restricting myself from commenting ha. I've been a guest since June 2013 and if it actually filters out the trolls, I have my support on it.
Sounds a bit like the riot act, but I think it was needed. This should be added to the rules section or stickied somehow.
.
Also, if I may be so bold to add to this:
• If you want to see something, be the change you want to see. Want more content? Post more content.
• Be nice to the "good guests." Don't feed the trolls.
.
And...
.
Be excellent to each other.
You say to try to email you again. I've emailed you guys 8 times in 5 weeks, with two different emails. How many more times do I have to try again for you to answer?
BEST ADMIN EVER,
I've never felt any website cared for its users this much, and you guys are simply great at communication,i had no idea something so serious could also be so humorous.
I am very certainly never leaving this website with this protection.
One more thing tho, in my opinion, FunSubstance is way closer to big than small, I've seen your familiar watermark all over the internet, even in the first few rows of Google images
Dear FS admins,
Let me just say thank you. Maintaining a site like this has got to be hard, and the bad guests and bad users try their best to ruin the system. During the semi-recent guest and bookhoarder trouble, you may recall that I tried to help in my own way by peacefully rallying in some comment threads, reporting repeat offenders of the rules, and of course, my famous public letter to the gods of FunSubstance. To try and clear up everything as best I could. (Because I know you see everything and then a bit more, but sometimes seeing everything restricts you from noticing everything) And the thing is, every situation is handled, every public letter in an attempt to SAVE the community by contacting the gods (ahem) is heeded, and of course, you don't hesitate to make a few jokes even in your reprimandation! I have to say, you guys are pretty much the best admins around, and I'm honestly really proud of being in this community because it's so amazing. So, just thank you and all.
5
deleted
· 8 years ago
I really, really mean it.
Also, after that crisis we all want to forget, I sent you an email I suspect was unintentionally ignored, but the general gist was thanks, and I noted how I'd try to keep up my role as messenger to the admins JIC sometimes goes bad. Hopefully I can do that, because I want to keep this place, and being able to openly communicate with you is really shocking, thrilling, considering what you've done and what you will do. You see everything on FS, but you don't know the way [REDACTED USERNAME] and I freaked out the second I got that response. Thank you for everything. Here's to a better relationship between you guys and me, users and helpers of the community, all the other users and you as friends and allies, and to FunSubstance, for outshining every other site, not because of the posts, but because of the posters, commenters, the people. Because of us.
-StrangelyAcoustic
"...slow down and reconsider your life..."
"Not everything you see on the internet is true -Aristotle"
" YOU IGNORED MY EMAIL." "Try sending it again."
I appreciate this so much this is the kind of attitude/sass I loooove.
Ever heard of the guy called Oreo?
Is he the Moreos' guy?
Though Perchu on tumblr is a guy
Which raises another question.
At what point do the admins deem it necessary to intercede?
More importantly, you have to understand that the Internet is free for all. Cyber bullying/harassment is a difficult problem that even big companies like Facebook cannot eliminate. We believe that as the community grows bigger, such conflicts will be reduced and we (you and me) will be able to respond faster to threats.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2261
Here's the US law on stalking.
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/vaw00/cyberstalking_laws.html
However, from what I understand, merely harassing without threat (and inciting harassment without threat) over a website unfortunately isn't covered under the law. If it's without threat, it must be through phone or text (only?). However, I'll contact my local police department and ask on the "official" interpretation, how to invoke it, and what it means for you admins and then get back to you.
-
Although you have no affiliation with the Funsubstance kik chats and other third party chat rooms, those services may be considered a "texting" environment because it's not "publicly" available for people to post on, unlike forums or here on FS. If this is the case, how far would you be willing to help stop cyberstalking?
.
bookhoarder's side of the story:
http://tinyurl.com/o24vlvd
guests side of the story:
http://tinyurl.com/pbkkcx6
.
If you need anymore of screenshots, they're kind of unrelated, but they're from what happened.
https://funsubstance.com/fun/254043/new-idea-and-its-bookhoarder/
Scroll down to bookhoarder's post as a guest and click on 'read more'
Remember that now it's too late to enforce that stuff with federal power, but good on you for trying to understand what qualifies
Also, I don't know what we should do with the feds and all but we do need to think about it.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.61.260
Please keep in mind that you have asked several questions that have a varied response from Law Enforcement that you could receive from different states and of course countries. It is also difficult to answer without seeing the exact words of the conversation as well as the intent of the venue these discussion have taken place in.
I will provide my contact information at the end and encourage you to call me or provide me a phone number to call you so we could hold a more fluid conversation versus question and answer via email.
I have added some of you specific questions below and tried to address them separately.
The City of Bothell Police Department in the State of Washington enforces and charges crimes under the guidance of the REVISED CODES OF WASHINGTON (RCW’s). You can search RCW’s (Revised Codes of Washington) and will have access to all the statutes listed under Washington State law.
The below link will direct you specifically to “Cyberstalking” for your reference.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.61.260
Keep in mind that there are many discussion groups/chat rooms that exist on the internet. There is more freedom provided in these volunteer participants “chat groups” that may not exist if you were holding a discussion in some other format with an individual that did not choose to participate in a discussion.
As I stated above the best way to address this question would be that the “victim” call and speak with their local law enforcement to share the specific information to determine if a crime has occurred and if it is possible for law enforcement to follow up on it. There are obvious challenges that criminal investigation follow up may not be practicable based on the type of crime and if a possible suspect is in another state or even more challenging, if outside of the United States.
*waves*
But my posts haven't been getting as many likes, and that was three days ago. When can I post again?
"Stop lying."
"Reconsider your life choices"
Ah~ never change Fs. Never change
-Aristotle"
My favorite lol
We appreciate your efforts, keep it up!
I might even be worse cos they will take up the usernames :(
.
Also, if I may be so bold to add to this:
• If you want to see something, be the change you want to see. Want more content? Post more content.
• Be nice to the "good guests." Don't feed the trolls.
.
And...
.
Be excellent to each other.
First one is very true
That's not what I meant
I've never felt any website cared for its users this much, and you guys are simply great at communication,i had no idea something so serious could also be so humorous.
I am very certainly never leaving this website with this protection.
Let me just say thank you. Maintaining a site like this has got to be hard, and the bad guests and bad users try their best to ruin the system. During the semi-recent guest and bookhoarder trouble, you may recall that I tried to help in my own way by peacefully rallying in some comment threads, reporting repeat offenders of the rules, and of course, my famous public letter to the gods of FunSubstance. To try and clear up everything as best I could. (Because I know you see everything and then a bit more, but sometimes seeing everything restricts you from noticing everything) And the thing is, every situation is handled, every public letter in an attempt to SAVE the community by contacting the gods (ahem) is heeded, and of course, you don't hesitate to make a few jokes even in your reprimandation! I have to say, you guys are pretty much the best admins around, and I'm honestly really proud of being in this community because it's so amazing. So, just thank you and all.
Also, after that crisis we all want to forget, I sent you an email I suspect was unintentionally ignored, but the general gist was thanks, and I noted how I'd try to keep up my role as messenger to the admins JIC sometimes goes bad. Hopefully I can do that, because I want to keep this place, and being able to openly communicate with you is really shocking, thrilling, considering what you've done and what you will do. You see everything on FS, but you don't know the way [REDACTED USERNAME] and I freaked out the second I got that response. Thank you for everything. Here's to a better relationship between you guys and me, users and helpers of the community, all the other users and you as friends and allies, and to FunSubstance, for outshining every other site, not because of the posts, but because of the posters, commenters, the people. Because of us.
-StrangelyAcoustic
He needs a cookie.
"Not everything you see on the internet is true -Aristotle"
" YOU IGNORED MY EMAIL." "Try sending it again."
I appreciate this so much this is the kind of attitude/sass I loooove.
What happened when "Funsubstance reached its maximum comment/post limit"?