I am actually not anti abortion (within the limits of morality and ethics) however just need to point out that none of the other procedures mentioned involves other potentially live human beings being hurt, thus there is a huge difference. Just saying.
I'm very swayed by both sides on this topic. It pains me that people can get abortions and want abortions just so they can have sex and if they accidentlh get pregnant then ptentially end a great person's life. But also I hate that women are not allowed to friggin do what they want with their bodies. So there... man, having a dick sure is hard sometimes (no pun intended) coz we never get a say in these things.
But the only two of those that a person intentionally does are smoking and having sex. You can't compare getting pregnant from consensual sex to accidentally hurting yourself.
But it is illegal to drive while drunk. Also, 'messing around with a gun' could be interpreted as behaving idiotically and in an unsafe manner while using said firearm, in which case the injury would have been brought upon the injured person by their actions.
But you see, all of those you chose to do and an accident happened. You chose to climb that tree, you didn't choose to fall. You chose to have sex you didn't expect to get pregnant.
I don't think gary17 has had sex yet...(that wasn't meant to be offensive--example: the main purpose of smoking isn't to get lung cancer, it's to relax obviously)
Not everyone chooses to have sex. There are a lot of rape victims who get abortions. Not to mention, most people nowadays don't consider reproduction to be the main reason to have sex.
Scientifically, conception is the entire goal of intercourse
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· 9 years ago
Scientifically, somebody bigger than you who wants everything you have is entitled to it just on the basis of nature saying that might makes right. Human beings operate on a different level from what simply occurs in nature though.
Alex, what percentage of abortions do you think come from rape? It turns out hardly any. I know multiple couples who track their ovulation and still have trouble conceiving, it just isn't that easy. In the us 95% of abortions are birth control purposes, 1% rape, 1% incest, and 3% are for concerns over mother's health. Those numbers don't seem to favor 95% of the arguments I see on here.
Most people have the argument of I just want to do whatever they want and if they get pregnant, ah screw it, flush that shit out!
It's because it's only you when you break your leg, only you have to get sewn up and have a surgical operation. When it's someone getting an abortion, you're accounting for another life and soul. It's not circumstance, it's morals and ethics.
To be fair there are circumstances in which one might be denied a vital procedure like a transplate, or a place on the list. For example, a liver might not go to someone who has destroyed it through alcoholism, or lung might not go to a person who smoked their own into oblivion.
Driving drunk will also get you arrested. And as someone who has lost more than one person to drunk drivers, I say they should be denied a transplant. Not medical care, but an organ should go to someone who hasn't necessitated it by illegal and reprehensible means.
Sorry, stepping off soapbox now.
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Edited 9 years ago
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· 9 years ago
If it can't viably survive outside of your body, then that living thing--whether considered a person or not--is making use of your body and your organs. If you're somebody who does not consider a fetus a person, then you accidentally acquired a parasite and deserve a medical procedure to remove it if you wish. If you're somebody who does consider it a person, then there is a person separate from yourself who is making use of your organs. If this is against your wishes, then legally you shouldn't be forced to allow use of your body by another person. Even dead bodies can't be harvested without proper legal consent. If you're so worried about the survival of something not viable outside a womb, start donating to research to produce artificial wombs and fetus relocation surgery. Unwanted pregnancies relocated instead of terminated, babies adopted right from the fetal stage. This is my sci-fi dream.
... the pill is not infallible, rubbers rip, sometimes shit just happens. other things can occur too, like some people do not know that some antibiotics interfere with the pill and the doctors tend to assume you know (i know people with kids for this exact reason),
But you can agree that many people in this situation refused to use protection?
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· 9 years ago
I don't think it's as simple as refusing to use protection. We have a terrible gap in our sexual education, and a lot of people genuinely believe things like having sex in water or on certain schedules are not as risky as they are. You could probably find plenty of current parents who thought what they were doing WAS protecting against pregnancy in some way.
i really don't think anyone who does not want a baby REFUSES to use protection. sometimes theres issues like controlling men trying to force women to have a baby to keep them attached, sometimes people are convinced pulling out works, some people are confused about the rhythm method, i can't tell you how many times in my past i have spent a few weeks terrified till i had my period because of some stupid shit that happened, and i use both hormonal birth control AND condoms when i do not want a baby.
I wasn't going to comment on this but I had a thought that made it impossible to resist. If sex didn't feel so damn good, we wouldn't have this fucking problem. I swear kids eat money and I just cleaned shit off my living room wall. I love my children but holy hell, kid!
Just_here_4_nudes; If a petridich with a tiny fetus, and a two month old baby hung from the celing, and you could only catch one when they both fall; wich one would you catch?
Wel thank allah none of you guys were ever fetuses!
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· 9 years ago
I was a fetus before I was a person. If I had been aborted, 1) I wouldn't know the difference and I know it so let's not pretend the issue actually matters to a non-thinking gob of cells itself and 2) my mother would not have had the shitty life she had trying to feed and clothe a child she couldn't afford. She would have joined the military, as was her dream, and not be an almost 60, uneducated widow with no retirement and no job prospects to help get out of her barely functioning house. It's not like raising a kid helped her, the recession fucked any chance I had. So how about we stop worrying about the poor, mindless little accident and pay attention to the woman who might be fucked for literally the rest of her life? I wasn't a choice, I was forced on her due to lack of abortion access, and she's paid for it a thousand times over.
Then why haven't you killed yourself? Based on your argument, your death would have made your mothers life better. The difference between abortion and all these other things is that your mom made a conscious choice to have sex. If she wasn't ready for the consequences, then she shouldn't have done it.
annnndd theres the sex shaming that the anti abortion crowd always rolls out... completely ignoring that having an abortion is also a consequence, just any other injury, you don't tell the person that they got themselves into that mess so they don't deserve medical care. the thing is, if you stopped sex shaming and started promoting safer sex and education on sex and birth control that ALONE would decrease abortions more than any ban ever would! the folks who spend their young loves denied proper sex ed and only taught sex = shame are the ones having the most unwanted children and abortions y'all are creating your own problem.
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· 9 years ago
@just_here_4_nudes: my mother was on birth control which, as anti-sex pro-lifers love to ignore, is not 100%. People make conscious decisions to ride motorcycles and wear helmets, but nobody blames them when they're in an accident the helmet fails to completely protect the brain against. And you know what? Yes, killing myself probably would have made my mother's life better, so I fail to see how your answer is an argument against mine. She was a good mother, she worked full time jobs to make sure I had food and clothing and never shirked the responsibility she was stuck with, but she also never hid the fact that I wasn't a wanted pregnancy. So I did what I could to become independent ASAP, but that doesn't change the fact that she got screwed just because you don't like that there's a world full of narratives different from yours.
I'm not anti sex at all, but I'm well aware that if my girlfriend (or random girl I bring home) got pregnant, I'd have to step up and take care of the kid. If she didn't want it, that's fine, I'll accept responsibility. Again the other consequences don't always involve killing an innocent person. As for the education, you know what I did before I had sex? Looked into whether I can get a girl pregnant if I don't wear a condom, turns out the answer is yes, so I wear one. It's not hard to do a little research about something that basic.
I'm not saying it's your moms fault either, your dad should have stepped up to help her. What I'm saying is if people actually thought about potential consequences before they did things, they wouldn't be put in situations where they have to chose to kill their child.
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· 9 years ago
My dad died early of congestive heart failure, followed a month later by her father of leukemia. Don't assume things only happen to the uninformed, or that information is as easy for everyone ro get as it is for you. Not everyone has internet access, or even the time to comb through a local library. Some people think they're protected and do everything right and things still happen. Yes, it IS that hard to do a little research if you've had an upbringing that doesn't make it so simple. Your circumstances are not the rest of the world's. Your assumption that your privilege is everyone else's is your problem.
There's a product you may want to look into called "life insurance". Basically what it does is provide financial security for your family if you die.
That information is in any anatomy book at a library, or any doctor would tell you the same thing. You could probably go to a pharmacy and they would provide the same information for free.
Also, referring to your not having a chance because of the recession. Don't assume that because there's a recession you can't make something of yourself. Everything in life is what you make out if it.
I think why most people see a divide between abortion and those other situations is that almost all of them were life threatening where as being pregnant is not. (I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this thought process. just a hypothesis of others reasoning)
Except sometimes being pregnant IS life-threatening. There are a lot of cases where, if the fetus isn't terminated, both the mother and the fetus will die. Also, have you not considered how much it takes to care for a child? Do you not consider that life-threatening to someone who already doesn't have the means to take care of themselves let alone a baby? Just things to think about.
I do agree with the fact that there can be life threatening cases of course. However I am very supportive of the idea of adoption if there isn't a fitting home with the biological parents (again I'm not saying i am for/against abortion. this was purely to express another side of the discussion)
Personally, I hate when people bring up adoption as if it's some miracle solution to the problem. I have a friend who was put up for adoption and was in the system his entire life. You can't even begin to imagine the kind of toll that takes on a person. There were many times he contemplated suicide, and he's told me several times that that's the worst thing that could've happened to him and that he would never want to put someone else through something like that. You guys don't think people who are considering abortion haven't already weighed the prospect of adoption? You don't think they haven't already weighed every solution and every outcome? Some people see abortion as their best option because they know they can't personally take care of a child and they're already aware of how fucked up the system is.
Seriously guys, adoption isn't the cure for everything. Sometimes abortion is the only viable solution for some people.
I never said it was. I will repeat myself AGAIN that I'm only being devils advocate here. I have a very close friend who was adopted at a young age and I am well aware of how the system is extremely flawed. There really aren't many options out there for a situation like this and definitely not one that will please everyone, sadly.
A major point that my mom was just discussing with me about abortion is that everyone cares about the baby/fetus while inside the mother's stomach. Abortion or no abortion. But, not as much attention goes to after the child is born.
and thats really the crux of the issue... most abortions happen because the mother cannot support a child... i think if people REALLY wanted to stop abortions they would both ensure people received proper sexual educations + have easy access to birth control AND see to it that folks not in a position to support a child were given the means. the thing is most people who are against abortion are also the same ones fighting every form of welfare and accusing poor people of only having babies to get gov't checks.
Why are people posting this on here?
This is supposed to be Fun substance, not Political substance.
Honestly, I hate when people bring this ish onto websites because we're here to laugh at stupid posts, not have views aired out in the open and see people argue over them.
Just- UGH
What if you were raped, and especially if you were 13? What if you are in a forced marriage and forced to have a baby? What if the baby was going to be so disabled it wouldn't be fair on it to live?I understand if you were wealthy enough to provide for the baby and you're in a stable place and you had unprotected sex and you got pregnant, fair enough I agree. But you have to understand pregnancies aren't all like that and at the end of the day it's up to the welfare if the pregnant woman and the child.
Why do pro-choice people always straight-up ignore the issue of abortion involving the killing of a human? That's obviously the center of the pro-life argument, but they ignore it completely and act like pro-life advocates are ridiculous.
If you are eventually expecting a baby then yes it is very sad. But if you don't want a baby then there is nothing inhumane about choosing to terminate. You can make up straw man arguments all you want to try to make me feel guilty, but that won't change the facts.
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· 9 years ago
Besides, no expectant mother is dreaming happily of being able to snuggle an undeveloped fetus. She's looking forward to, and thinking of it as, the baby it will become but has not become yet. That is the idea miscarrying women mourn, the eventual child that will never be. They can certainly be sad this particular dream won't be realized, that's the sadness people have empathy and sympathy for. But it's not a baby yet, and while some people mourn a future that won't happen for them, other people see it as a future they do not want. Nobody gets congratulated because an embryo implanted, people get congratulated because they are clearly happy and others are glad something they are happy about has occurred. I don't see people congratulating a woman who ISN'T happy about it just because it occurred.
It doesn't make sense that they would be so sad, because they can just get pregnant again. They are clearly sad about the loss of that particular fetus, not of the loss of what the fetus could have been.
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· 9 years ago
One, a miscarriage can be indicitive of further reproductive problems depending on the circumstances and can cause stress and fear about a lack of ability to carry a pregnancy to term ever. Two, a miscarriage can bring feelings of inadequacy and failure. Three, much of this can be made worse by the physical changes in hormones brought on by pregnancy. For men, having to deal with a partner going through this and being unable to make it better brings its own feelings of grief and perhaps inadequacy in some form. So yes, it makes sense to grieve the idea of what could have been because the failure of those plans to manifest can in itself mean future attempts will have the same result.
You're grasping for straws now. Those are all very situational, and aren't really relevant to the general feeling of grief and loss that comes with a miscarriage.
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· 9 years ago
No, it's pretty well documented. You being uninformed doesn't make something untrue, no matter how much you'd like it to be. Human grief, over anything, is never one-dimensional. Nor does your argument take into account those who miscarry and never realize or those who miscarry and aren't upset to the point of grief. Miscarriage is common.
"No, it's pretty well documented."
Gimme some links, then.
"You being uninformed doesn't make something untrue"
I didn't say anything was untrue, I said your argument was grasping at straws.
"Human grief, over anything, is never one-dimensional."
Never said it was.
"Nor does your argument take into account those who miscarry and never realize or those who miscarry and aren't upset to the point of grief."
Neither does yours, you were talking about the people who grieve, not all people who miscarry.
You listed a bunch of things that *could* cause grief, and then claimed that they definitively proved your argument. That's a hallmark of straw-grasping.
>abortion is a gender issue
lel
Go to one pro life rally. I promise you, the majority of the people there are women.
Most people have the argument of I just want to do whatever they want and if they get pregnant, ah screw it, flush that shit out!
Sorry, stepping off soapbox now.
I'm not saying it's your moms fault either, your dad should have stepped up to help her. What I'm saying is if people actually thought about potential consequences before they did things, they wouldn't be put in situations where they have to chose to kill their child.
That information is in any anatomy book at a library, or any doctor would tell you the same thing. You could probably go to a pharmacy and they would provide the same information for free.
Also, referring to your not having a chance because of the recession. Don't assume that because there's a recession you can't make something of yourself. Everything in life is what you make out if it.
Seriously guys, adoption isn't the cure for everything. Sometimes abortion is the only viable solution for some people.
This is supposed to be Fun substance, not Political substance.
Honestly, I hate when people bring this ish onto websites because we're here to laugh at stupid posts, not have views aired out in the open and see people argue over them.
Just- UGH
>not human
Nice try.
If anyone ever has a miscarriage, be sure to walk up to them and tell them they shouldn't be sad, because it was only a fetus not a baby.
Gimme some links, then.
"You being uninformed doesn't make something untrue"
I didn't say anything was untrue, I said your argument was grasping at straws.
"Human grief, over anything, is never one-dimensional."
Never said it was.
"Nor does your argument take into account those who miscarry and never realize or those who miscarry and aren't upset to the point of grief."
Neither does yours, you were talking about the people who grieve, not all people who miscarry.
You listed a bunch of things that *could* cause grief, and then claimed that they definitively proved your argument. That's a hallmark of straw-grasping.