Although it may sound ethically wrong I would terminate the pregnancy too, I feel that if you have the option to why make a child suffer or have a lesser quality of life?
Wouldn't mind discussing someone else's view point if they think differently from me.
And you can't necessarily tell how much it'll impact their life from a few tests, so even if you carry the baby to term with hopes they're high functioning they could end up never being able to live on their own or have their own adult life.
I guess that is dependent on what you determine to be a lesser quality of life. There are many children born with down syndrome who lead rich fulfilling lives. We can not know what life will bring. If we decided to terminate pregnancy based on physical disability or malformation we could end up depriving not only a perfectly happy child of life, but the world of a potentially huge influence. That is my view point.
That is very true, some mothers aren't able to care for a child their whole life, and there's no way of knowing what will happen. If it were killing the child after they were born that would be a different story, but in this case I support their choice.
Some of the sweetest people I’ve met have Down syndrome autism or other special needs. to me it almost feels as if you are saying that their life isn’t worth as much/ won’t be as fulfilling as a “normal” baby. I think every baby should get a shot at a happy life, even if they are delt a more difficult path. I would rather a difficult path over no path.
But I also feel that it is a free country (at least in the US) so although I don’t agree with abortion, people can choose what they want/what they think. Just like although I may not agree with say, Disney firing Gunn they are a private company and they should be able to do what want, if guardians 3 sucks/doesn’t sell that’s on them but I am not forced to go see it.
Be careful not to interpret what I say as "People who currently have down syndrome should die", because that's not it at all. You shouldn't be treated differently (to an extent) when you have a mental illness/disability and their lives are worth the same as any other. However, in my view it's not just the baby's life that is impacted but also the family, it is the parents choice to continue with the pregnancy. I would terminate it as although I am fully equipped and capable of raising a child with a disability, I am given the choice before this baby is even a baby to not risk it having a difficult life. I understand and respect your view point though.
As others say- it’s more complex than all that. On the one hand- there are compelling practical reasons to terminate a pregnancy if you have high reason to believe your child may be born with DS. on the other, it isn’t fair to say that it is doing the child a kindness. Who can say what quality of life someone with DS has, unless they know first hand what it is like to live with downs? We assume that they somehow suffer for their lack of what we believe we have and they don’t, but do we know that they are any less happy? Is it fair to say that a human with higher apparent intelligence and function should be able to say that anyone who doesn’t function at their level must be miserable? While it isn’t the same as saying “kill everyone with downs” it is the same as saying that their lives do not have the same value- in effect that their existence is a curse upon them and those who care for them. Is it right? I don’t know. I wouldn’t judge a parent who did or did not terminate.....
... most people just hope they are never in a position where they would have that choice to make, and if it comes, must do what they believe is best for them and their unborn child, no different from any other abortion in my mind- just a decision based on the parent and wether they think their own life or the child’s life is one that should or can carry the impact of that specific birth. Like all abortion, it’s situational and not something to be decided by anyone but those involved- as those involved are the ones who must live with the decision once it’s made.
I agree that it's far more complex than people may realize. I've worked with special needs adults and I love them dearly but I honestly would probably terminate if I knew in advance. There are lots of programs for them when they are young but once they turn 18 there is almost nothing for them. Sure, there are homes for them to live however, they get to choose what they eat every night even if it's not healthy for them (people with Down's gain weight extremely easily) and there isn't much the parents can do as they no longer have much of a say in their child's life due to the child being an adult. I've watched a special needs adult lose her entire savings, cell phone, ipod, etc because a man told her that he loved her (within 5 mins of meeting her) so she gave it all to him. I've been watching this tear her Mother to pieces seeing all of this happen and there's nothing her Mother can do about it. I also don't believe that any siblings should be expected...
...to look after a brother or sister with special needs as they have their own life to live. I've seen and enjoyed the love and wonder special needs people have and give to the world, but I've also seen the dark side of it. I don't judge anyone for what they choose when it comes to deciding something as difficult as whether to continue to bring a baby with special needs to full term or not. I hope no one here has to make such a difficult decision.
I’m so glad to see that there are still places where civilized conversation about sensitive topics is still possible. Everybody here has presented their viewpoints, and both of them have merit. As laughwendy pointed out, there isn’t really a right choice. It’s a tough situation to be in...
For those who are for this: At what day, exactly, do you believe an abortion is unethical? Because there are several comments that said it would be wrong to kill a person with disabilities after they are born, but not before birth. 1 hour before, 1 week before, 1 month before? I mean this sincerely, not angrily, but it baffles me and breaks my heart that most people say "before they are alive" but have do not have an educated belief on when that moment is. And it is absolutely critical in these kinds of ethical/legal situations.
The moment a fetus becomes " alive " is controversial. Some people say that at conception the life begins whiles others say within the first trimester or before the brain is formed to a certain amount. I rarely ever see anyone advocate for an abortion at almost born except for extreme circumstances.
Sadly, up until not too long ago there was such a thing as a partial birth abortion, specifically intended for late term abortion. Do not look it up if you have a weak stomach. Personally, my view is, if there is a reasonable chance of the baby surviving outside the womb it should be considered alive. I also have other emotional views based on knowledge of the point a fetus feels pain ect, but, as I said, those are rooted in emotion and not logic. Personally, and I do mean me personally, I could and would never try and soeak for others, I could never have an abortion but again, that is an EXTREMELY personal and individual situation that can NOT be pegged down or catagorized. Honestly, the vehemently prolifers piss me off as much as the radically prochoicers (by radicals I mean the ones who live stream their abortion to show how AWESOME it is). I think this very maturly discussed thread has addressed the fact it isn't as black and white an issue as many people would believe.
Honestly I feel it should be heavily regulated so you don't get chicks who do that or the ones who decide to do that rather than use BC or terminate based on the babies sex. But then you also get people who think you should HAVE to carry a dead baby until it naturally passes.
I don’t think you are asking the right question @changetheworld. Alive? It was alive before it was a fetus. It was made of living cells from a mother and father. My lunch was alive before I ate it today. The mold in my shower was alive before I cleaned it this weekend. That bug I stepped on coming up the sidewalk was alive as well. We kill many things in many ways everyday. Life is not the core of the issue- unless you are a pure vegan Buddhist monk- who never harms a fly, opposes all capital punishment, never uses a product that requires a living thing to suffer- the question stops being if a fetus is alive- it becomes at what point does a fetus posses the nerves, the brain matter, the capability for thought that would make it any more worthy of the elevation to humanity than say- a chicken, or a wasp. The thing which you search for is- at what point is this living mass of cells considered human life, and no longer subject to the lesser standards we hold for life that isn’t human?
I agree with everyone on the point that this a lot more complicated than expected, there's so many things to think about and none of my personal answers can be certain until I am in this actual situation. I would have an abortion if absolutely necessary but I can't actually say that is true until I am placed in that position as abortions are apparently emotionally harrowing regardless of your views of what a human life is or when it starts. @changetheworld, on that subject, I believe a human life begins when the fetus is able to think and feel, the brain gives its first electrical message at about day 43 (wk 6), however this does not mean it is a human being yet as it does not feel, it just means the body is functioning. In Australia, where I live, abortions cannot be preformed after the 20th week so personally, I believe an abortion is unethical beyond this point. I have had no personal experiences with abortion, nor do I know anyone who's had one so my point is based off trust in law
I agree that this is a very complicated topic. I believe that an abortion after 20 weeks (abortion is legal in Canada up to 20 weeks also) should not be allowed except for certain circumstances. Such as threat to the Mother's life, severe mental disability (brain is half formed or not at all, etc). I fully believe in prochoice as I have no idea what kind of situation someone else is in and I will never judge anyone else for making a difficult decision like that. Personally, I would like to have children although at almost 40, it's pretty much off the table. I'm not in a relationship and I refuse to just have a child because I would like to have one. It's just not for me in that way. I have had a miscarriage so I really don't think that I could handle an abortion but who knows what I would choose in the situation.
@laughwendylaugh, if you're okay if sharing, hopefully I'm not being insensitive but I would like to know emotionally how a miscarriage felt. Apparently it's similar to an abortion, obviously a lot more painful and depressing as you don't expect or want or choose for it to happen. I'm sorry that happened to you, it really is like losing a child.
Thank you @parisqeen I don't think you're being insensitive for asking how it felt emotionally. I think it's different for different people depending on their circumstances. I don't have any kids and I've never had an abortion so I don't know how either of those feel. I wasn't in a good relationship and we used protection but hey! things happen. For me, I was really lucky and wasn't far along, maybe a month and half in but your hormones kick in quite quickly so losing it felt like a huge loss for me. The urge to protect and nurture this little thing was really strong for me and that urge disappeared almost overnight for me. I was trying to deal with the urge and knowing that my body rejected this little life force, plus all the blood...omg so much blood! I was a wreck. All I wanted from him was a hug. Just hold me and let me cry a little but he just ran away and avoided me for some time afterwards. It's been a few years and I look back at it as a blessing in disguise...
...as I would have been on my own and I don't think that's a good way to bring a child into the world (I do admire those who follow through with it though). I do wonder if I can actually have kids and sometimes my heart breaks when I see babies and small children. Each time I find out that a friend is expecting, I do find myself feeling jealous but sooo excited for them. Sorry for the long post, I guess emotionally, I find it difficult to describe as I was all over the map lol I felt a huge loss, pain (so much cramping), confusion (why would my body reject this), emotional pain (I have so much love to give), etc. I don't know if any of this answers your question or not...
It does answer it, thank you. Like you said, although it was painful both physically and emotionally for you it was probably for the best for the circumstances you were in. Being a single mum or a mum in a difficult relationship would have been damaging too you and the child. Have you ever thought of adopting? Or trying to have a child another way or at all?
I know the urge to be a mother is strong, hell I'm a youngin but I know I want to be a mum so badly.
I've thought about it and it's so difficult to adopt a child if you're married and in your 30's let alone single and starting your 40's. For me, I think it's a completely different situation if you're in a relationship, have a child, and then split up therefore becoming a single Mum as opposed to going it alone from the beginning. I know that I'm strong enough to do it by myself but I don't think I could give the child everything I think it deserves, emotionally and monetary. I think I would so stressed out trying to pay the bills by myself plus be there physically and emotionally for the child. I do admit that I much prefer the idea/concept of being able to say "here! Take your kid for a while, I'm going for a run" lol
I think that's a smart decision hahaha. It's hard but there's no point choosing to bring a child into your life when you can't support it or yourself fully.
Same! I'm also 21 (French) and was supposed to have DS. My parents took the decision to keep me only after talking with my sisters because my mom was already 40 and needed to be sure that they would look after me no matter what if anything was to happen to her or my dad before I was completely autonomous.
Wouldn't mind discussing someone else's view point if they think differently from me.
But I also feel that it is a free country (at least in the US) so although I don’t agree with abortion, people can choose what they want/what they think. Just like although I may not agree with say, Disney firing Gunn they are a private company and they should be able to do what want, if guardians 3 sucks/doesn’t sell that’s on them but I am not forced to go see it.
I know the urge to be a mother is strong, hell I'm a youngin but I know I want to be a mum so badly.