His chances of getting into college is basically nil. He will always have trouble getting a job unless he drastically changes his name and a host of other documents which can cost thousands of dollars. His social life is officially ruined almost as bad as mine was given the entire school agreed that I was a school shooter. And that's not even mentioning the Laci Green types where "You were accused of rape, therefore you are a rapist even if you've never touched the woman and live in different states."
Sounds like this might be in Europe though. And wouldn’t Brady only apply if they actually had the records? It sounds like the police didn’t have them. I don’t know, it’s been a while since I’ve read Brady.
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Edited 6 years ago
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· 6 years ago
Oh I didn’t realize it’s in England, I think if the prosecutor knew about it then it would be Brady but I’m not sure whether or not they did
I found the link. The story doesn't detail that he was acquitted BECAUSE of the lace thong. That would be absurd.
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But the underwear was mentioned as supporting evidence in a complicated situation involving consent. Some people are up in arms because it was entered as evidence, and sounds a whole lot like victim blaming. This particular court investigated and decided they didn't have enough evidence to say it was a forced encounter, but they didn't say how much of their decision was based on the thong. Other factors were at work and this is it of context.
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Rape is obviously an emotional issue and it's heartbreaking that we have to investigate every detail of every accusation. But a false accusation can really ruin person's life.
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Here's the link: https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-46207304
Just because they were in a relationship doesn't mean he didn't rape her. I was raped by a man to whom I was engaged. Sex can be used as a weapon in relationships. Not necessarily saying that's the case here, but it does happen. Perhaps they didn't release the messages because they weren't relevant to the case. I'm a lawyer, and I can think of half a dozen instances in which those messages would not be accepted as evidence anyway. Playing devil's advocate here.
I’m sorry you had to go through that. Many don’t believe or don’t even consider marital and relationship rape- but as you attest to, they are real. The existence of a sexual relationship does not preclude rape. If 2 people have sex 1,000 times and sext every day- of one doesn’t want to the 1,001 time- thatbis rape. If one is intoxicated and the other has decided with them and there isn’t consent (most common with an act they wouldn’t do sober- or haven’t done sober-), that is rape. In this case I don’t know the details well enough to have a specifically informed opinion on the verdict, and in so many cases much of the details come down to one persons word and recollection against another- but relationship or no- yes. It is possible that he still could rape her. There are also complications and shades to sex crimes- as unpopular and sticky an opinion that may be. It is entirely possible to notnhave commoted the criminal act of rape, but still have someone who feels they were raped....
... lack of criminal intent or proof of criminal conduct do not change the perception or emotions of a person who feels violated. There is a razors edge of legal complications to the view- but it is important to keep in mind that contrary to what seems popular sentiment- not all women who report rape which is overturned by a court for valid reasons of evidence are “faking” or trying to use the accusation as a weapon or ploy. People may feel legitimately violated. This is not an excuse for rape or a consolation for accused rapists. It is just an objective fact- if they feel violated, even by something you’ve done a million times like a kiss- that is how they feel. You may have meant no harm and thought you weren’t doing wrong, but they have been wronged. So not all women who lose in court- even by a huge amount of evidence- were “faking,” and not all accused are slime. Rape must be taken case by case on individual people and circumstances. Listening and empathizing are keys.
I agree with you @guest_, but the simple act of feeling wronged does not necessarily mean an unlawful act was made. I would agree that it is immoral to do so as it decreases the well-being of the person, but there in some cases there is no precedent for such feelings of being wrong and many instances where the opposite was met. Imagine a husband giving his wife a quick kiss before going to work. He does it everyday, and she enjoys it everyday. And then without warning, she suddenly feels wronged by it.
There is a lot of nuance to any discussion about physical gestures and unspoken consent given how little humans communicate with words. The exact percentages are impossible to nail down, but a significant part of our communication is done without a single word being spoken from our posture, our expression, and even the amount that our eyelids are closed. I don't know what you guys are talking about, but I just wanted to point this out.
As for fake rape reports, I am of the belief that we should always assume that the report is faulty until proven otherwise. It could be a misidentification, misunderstanding of language, actually a legitimately and intention fake, or worst of all an actual rape. Rape a very serious thing. I'm not qualified to make judgements on the guilty or not guilty status of a person. I just know that it is necessary to assume innocence or at least "not guilty".
Further, if we did away with the presumption of innocence, then the entire legal system would collapse and far more innocents will be punished unjustly. Your father goes on a fishing trip for a few hours. He is accused of raping a woman during those hours instead. He has no way to prove that he was indeed fishing even though he was. Your father would be sentenced to possible decades in prison. This system unfortunately means that some guilty people will slip through, but that is better than tens of thousands of innocents being shoved in.
I do say clearly on my post that the feeling of being wronged does not mean that an illegal act was performed. Just to clarify that first. You can feel wronged in many ways without it being illegal. Your phone company may offer you a deal full of fine print and you feel taken advantage of, but in a court they are squeaky clean in their rights. As for rape allegations- the way our justice system (is supposed to) function is that you are innocent of criminal acts until proven guilty, but being accused of a criminal act is not an assumption of guilt, you are just implicated in criminal action. So no- people shouldn’t fork lynch mobs outside the jail, or decide that someone is a rapist as soon as an accusation of rape is made, but the legal judgment and moral judgment are two different things once the evidence is known. You may be able to go to another country and legally sleep with an underage child without breaking any laws, but knowing you did I will still consider you a dirty pedophile
Consent can be revoked before or during sex but not after. Even if you regret having sex, its not rape because they didnt force you or coerce you into it, which is what rape is.
If that was the case you could accuse anyone youve ever slept with of rape and that DEFINITLEY wouldnt be abused at all.
I think coercion isn't what you think, @karlboll. Consent and coercion are mutually exclusive.
Definition: co·er·cion
noun
the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.
I am well aware of the different meanings of the words consent and coercion. A person can be coerced into giving false consent and that consent can thus be retroactively revoked. It's not often the court agrees but that does not change facts.
Coercion is like extreme peer pressure. You could say no but you don't feel safe saying it. Its not someone saying " why nooooot? " once and you giving in.
And social circumstances are up to you to break by saying no. If you only say yes because it's what other people expect then it's on you for not saying no.
Admittedly English is my second language but I find it very hard to see how I've misinterpreted what you've written. You've clearly defined coercion and consent as mutually exclusive and I have explained that false consent under coercion is possible. We seem to disagree only on the point wether consent under coercion is or isn't consent.
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· 6 years ago
No really trying to jump in but I think they’re saying that (at least in a court of law) a forced consent is not considered consent
But the other party would have to know the consent was somehow coerced before they were guilty of anything. If I have sex with someone and then it turns out they were coerced by someone else without my knowledge I’m not committing rape. If I’m coercing someone into sex then that’s just straight up rape.
I have to agree with @karlboll. There is a big difference between being in a consenting relationship and consenting to sex- even if previous consent was given for sex, marital rape is a real thing. That doesn’t mean this kid raped anyone. I haven’t seen the evidence. The thing about rape is it must almost always be discussed on a case by case basis. I knew a woman with rape fantasies who would have her fiancé slip moly in her drinks without telling her and then take advantage of her and things like that. To an outsider without that information it would seem like rape. Of course- if she woke up one morning and decided that THAT one time was rape.... a dangerous thing to play with even in a relationship. There is a legal principal which states that previous consent is not implied future consent in anything. Letting someone borrow your car doesn’t mean if they take your car later it isn’t theft- even if you say “take it whenever you want...” Under the right circumstances it’s defensible..
.. to a dismissal or reduction of charges- but by itself it is not a free pass. So the legal precedent exists that you can rape someone who gave “implicit consent.” Again- doesn’t mean this kid is a rapist. I don’t have those messages to decide for myself but a court decided they cleared him- right or wrong that’s all I have to go on. As for if you can revoke consent- no. You can’t. But yes. You can. If you give informed consent without duress in sound mind and body- that’s it. Feelings change but at that time that was your feeling. However if consent is not explicitly expressed and one is under any duress at the time of not of sound mind or body and lacking critical factors for informed consent- and when returned to a state of true self rejects the act- that is understandable and also protected by legal precedent. Every rape case is specific, and like many crimes there are not only degrees to sexual assault but mitigations to consider such as if the person knew or should reasonably...
... have known an act was wrong. Another legal precedent. All types of theft, breaking and entering/burglary vs trespassing, murder, assault, all types of crimes factor in if a person had intent, if they knew what they were doing or should have known it was wrong, etc. that isn’t a free pass but it effects the actual crime a person is tried for and the sentencing of convicted. So the fact that rape is such a topical item right now is a good thing. Our rape and harassment laws are terrible for almost everyone. Terrible for innocent people accused or who have to fear wrongful prosecution or blackmail, less severe offenders who get convictions for the same crimes as people who have done the unspeakable, unspeakable offenders who because of one size fits all categories are at the leniency of judges who can utilize great personal flexibility in sentencing and let guys like a convicted red handed rapist frat boy walk free because of their “potential”... and of course real victims...
... people who should be protected and who’s complaints should be taken seriously. Sisters and mothers and daughter and sons and brothers and friends who are afraid to even speak up or don’t think any good will come for all the bad. Who worry that their whole lives and private secrets will be put under a microscope for public viewing and every choice they ever made and every regret will be thrown in their face on public record. So we need to talk about rape and consent not just to educate people and change society, but because the laws are terrible and need to be better. Because if this kid did rape her he walks free and if he didn’t rape her he’s still living with the stigma as if he did. It’s zero sum, a loss for society whichever is true.
That's really well-said, @guest_. There's a lot going on here but I think we can all agree that:
1) If you're in a relationship with implied consent, you can and should be held liable if you rape your partner
2) Consent and coercion can't coexist
3) We know almost nothing about this particular situation beyond that the courts dismissed the case after texts between these individuals were discovered. Her voluntary texts proved consent was given at the time and only later did the accuser decide to change her mind. That's not okay. Worst of all, it weakens the position of actual rape victims, which is heartbreaking.
I would agree @jasonmon. One of the sad thoughts I have to have whenever something like this comes up is how much of a setback it is to all victims past through future when a rape allegation is declared false. It’s a low down dirty deed on par with rape itself to falsely accuse rape- the real trouble is in the inbetween line. When a person legitimately feels victimized and isn’t simply acting on false intentions. It’s truly sad because their pain is real, the effects of the allegation are real- so even though a not guilty verdict allows the accused to avoid a “false” sentence, neither “victim” nor accused feel they were served by justice and the reputations of all involved as well as the credibility of future cases is hurt. It’s such an awful crime on so many levels and as a society I think we need to put serious thought into changing our social dynamics so that explicit consent is the norm- to the point of documentation if required- because there’s just so much ambiguity.
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But the underwear was mentioned as supporting evidence in a complicated situation involving consent. Some people are up in arms because it was entered as evidence, and sounds a whole lot like victim blaming. This particular court investigated and decided they didn't have enough evidence to say it was a forced encounter, but they didn't say how much of their decision was based on the thong. Other factors were at work and this is it of context.
,
Rape is obviously an emotional issue and it's heartbreaking that we have to investigate every detail of every accusation. But a false accusation can really ruin person's life.
,
Here's the link: https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-europe-46207304
There is a lot of nuance to any discussion about physical gestures and unspoken consent given how little humans communicate with words. The exact percentages are impossible to nail down, but a significant part of our communication is done without a single word being spoken from our posture, our expression, and even the amount that our eyelids are closed. I don't know what you guys are talking about, but I just wanted to point this out.
Further, if we did away with the presumption of innocence, then the entire legal system would collapse and far more innocents will be punished unjustly. Your father goes on a fishing trip for a few hours. He is accused of raping a woman during those hours instead. He has no way to prove that he was indeed fishing even though he was. Your father would be sentenced to possible decades in prison. This system unfortunately means that some guilty people will slip through, but that is better than tens of thousands of innocents being shoved in.
If that was the case you could accuse anyone youve ever slept with of rape and that DEFINITLEY wouldnt be abused at all.
Definition: co·er·cion
noun
the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.
And social circumstances are up to you to break by saying no. If you only say yes because it's what other people expect then it's on you for not saying no.
1) If you're in a relationship with implied consent, you can and should be held liable if you rape your partner
2) Consent and coercion can't coexist
3) We know almost nothing about this particular situation beyond that the courts dismissed the case after texts between these individuals were discovered. Her voluntary texts proved consent was given at the time and only later did the accuser decide to change her mind. That's not okay. Worst of all, it weakens the position of actual rape victims, which is heartbreaking.