Bold. But very untrue. Let’s separate fact from fiction shall we? An estimated over 1/2 million Americans go bankrupt each year from medical related conditions not medical bills exactly. It’s an important distinction that will become more important in a moment. We won’t go down the entire list. I’ll Use the UK as our example.
The UK does NOT have 0 bankruptcies from medical related financial issues- roughly 5% of... they call it “insolvency” is medical related in the UK. How is this possible if there is “free” or “universal health care?” Well- two main reasons- one is that even in “free” healthcare systems in capitalist countries there are paid services, and two is that “medical bankruptcy” isn’t just for unpaid medical bills. It applies to other unpaid bills which are related to your medical condition. The wait times for major treatments in many universal systems can be very long. Often people are out of work for these periods and may incur expenses related to their conditions or treatment which aren’t covered under the general health plan.
So firstly- it is not accurate to say “600k+ US bankruptcies from medical bills...” as the number of medical bankruptcies is a subjective estimate- AND of that estimate not all are from medical bills directly- but related non healthcare costs. It is also not accurate to say ZERO bankruptcies for medical related reasons occur in other countries. And of course- many other countries don’t have “bankruptcy” but some analog so let’s ignore the last one (it just gets mention for comprehensiveness.)
OK! So- we can still see compared to the UK- if you get sick in the USA you have a WAY higher chance of going broke regardless of the minutia. Buuuut... here’s where it gets interesting. Comparatively- you just have a higher chance of going broke in the US. By percentage of population and of course total numbers- the US has a WAY higher bankruptcy rate. Remove medical related bankruptcy entirely and the US STILL has WAY higher per person odds of personal bankruptcy.
You see.... the REAL reason behind most bankruptcies is.... unexpected/unprepared financial expense. The percentage of Americans- who even if nothing went wrong and they just... didn’t have a job... couldn’t float for 3 months, even one month is beyond the reach of a large percentage of people. Americans don’t really save. Americans also extend much more of our lives on credit than those in many other countries. There’s a whole lot of factors that contribute to this.
Our healthcare system is in DIRE need of reform. Our social security systems and the protections for the individual citizen are very poor. But.... not only is it inaccurate to say what his says- but it also ignores the bigger picture. The finances of the average American and the lifestyle of the average American are also in dire need of reform.
Also, many popular sources will count any bankruptcy where even a dollar was at one point owed to medical expenses as a medical bankruptcy.
Go bankrupt because your house was fucked, but you also happened to be paying for a cheap cast? Congrats, it's a medical bankruptcy, not an act of God bankruptcy.
Well, I partially agree. Americans tend to be in a highly dangerous game of credit card debt, where one card pays another, aso.
But I think the statistics are not only aiming for costs of medical treatment, but they include the bankruptcies caused by longer sickness periods, as they mean periods without income.
The systems with universal healthcare I know are not only forcing employer to continue to pay your salary for 5-6 weeks of sickness, but your health insurance will cover up to 70% of your salary after that.
@f_kyeahhamburg- sadly even with all that the UK still has an internally reported 5% of insolvencies from medical related reasons. Doing some quick research it wasn’t hard to find (in the UK) people with relatively common injuries like shoulder issues or other things can be waiting even 12 months before they could get treatment. So I believe you are right- that these are likely longer periods of sickness and people who are also already stretched to where they can’t get by on partial support. Interestingly enough- America also has a system that pays most of a persons salary for periods of long term sickness, or pays a stipend to the unemployed. There isn’t any real mechanisms though to freeze or help with credit debts in these times and so many Americans live their entire lives off debts. That’s scary to me.
That's interesting, didn't know this was a thing in the US.
I terms of waiting times for treatments, I wonder how UK is reaching those figures, as I assume they are an average? Honestly, I don't have too much of a clue concerning their health care system.
I live in an almost 2 Million people city and it's not uncommon to wait 2-3 months for appointments at a specialist unless you're an emergency. In areas with fewer people, you might be having troubles to find a specialist nearby, but with lower waiting times.
But 12 months? That's a bummer, especially as I know that German doctors oftenly used to fly to the UK to do surgeries over the weekend, because they're being paid much better there.
The debt the average American is in is indeed frightening. An economy with so much of debt (and we know that vast amounts of it will likely not be paid back...?) might get into serious trouble at some point.
Yes. The US health system is out of control as far as costs and other things- but it actually isn’t quite the way it is painted. The problem is that since so many Americans live on finances that require debt and have no savings- even if you are getting 70+% of your salary when off work- you may not be able to keep up your gone and car and credit card payments- and without saving you have no cash available for large expenses so Americans put it on credit or get cash against credit and that builds the personal debt.
It’s circular. Because in part we have so much credit and credit is so easy to get, and debt is encouraged- things like homes can cost ALOT of money. When homes cost a lot- rents also go up because the property is worth more. Areas with good economies have it worst- for the “right house” or “right location” buyers will offer far over what a seller is asking so they can be sure they get the home. A couple making $100k+ each don’t see a problem with a $4k-6k monthly mortgage over 30 years and another $12k or so in property taxes a year. But... owning a home increases your credit and it is common practice to borrow against a home or use it as collateral.
It’s very common to borrow money from a first home to buy a second or third and then rent the extra homes. That pays for the additional mortgages and hopefully leaves some profit- but either way makes you “richer” because when a bank looks- you own several million dollars in property.
So what happens is that when a certain job is suddenly no longer valued (like many technical jobs that can go from high paying to low paying inside of a decade) or the industry falls apart, or you get fired... if you have all this debt but no or modest savings and only credit to keep you going until you get another job- and especially if your new job doesn’t pay as much... things an get bad.
When you can’t find a renter or something bad happens to one of your properties and it needs major work that will cost $20k+, that is a hard hit too. It isn’t a problem when people are paying your second mortgage but when you go several months without a renter and now have 2 $2500 or $4,000 mortgages to pay a month on a total of $200k a year....
So most of the time what happens is a combination of these things. Bad luck. You have been fine but a little tight on money and losing savings because you couldn’t find a renter for your extra home for a few months, your small business needs cash or isn’t doing a lot of business- or it’s seasonal work... and then your spouse loses their job or gets injured.... and suddenly what was just a rough patch becomes a spiraling nightmare of debt that you have to declare bankruptcy.
Our medical social security program can pay up to 100% of wages- but the average is probably closer to 50% as it isn’t primarily based off what you make- since it wouldn’t be practical to pay Bill Gates millions of dollars a day or some attorney or doctor all that money. Depending on how bad the condition is you may get it for months or even the rest of your life.
We also DO have government funded healthcare- but it is “needs based.” Children and parents get first priority, and you must make below a certain salary to get “free” health care. If you make a little more- you get “subsidized” government insurance. You pay a portion of the costs based on your income. But it is the law here that you cannot he denied lifesaving or critical care even if you cannot pay.
Our system is very... American. It is intended to cover those who cannot take care of themselves, to help those who need some help, and those who financially should be able to take care of their own health- it largely doesn’t worry about under the theory that those people should be able to take care of themselves.
Our taxes are relatively low- even very low, compared to many more socialist countries because our system isn’t designed where the government is the primary arbitrator of foolishness. The idea is that YOU keep more of your money and YOU decide what your priorities are and take care of yourself the way you want. It’s a bit harsh- but the idea is- somewhere is some guy with a Boat in his side yard or who drinks 2 beers after work every day or whatever. He gets sick and suddenly can’t afford it. But- if he’d saved the boat money or the beer money for when he might need it- he’d have the money to pay when he is sick.
His personal priority wasn’t his health or his financial stability but his TV or boat or clothes or cars or beers or whatever he spent his money on. He only thought about his lifestyle when everything was ok- who thinks they’ll get cancer? He made a bet. He gambled that he wouldn’t get cancer so he could spend the money on other things.
When people talk about America- the good parts of America- they talk about the cars everywhere, the big houses, how it seems like so many people have pools, the excesses America is known for. But- much of Europe has higher wages and lower costs of living than much of America- and most of Europe has higher taxes. So that’s the gist. We spend too much and live too big without thinking anything could go wrong. Then it does and we want our money back.
It’s an odd philosophical difference I suppose. But most of the time- if the world knows about an American problem? It’s an upper or middle class problem. It isn’t an issue of survival- it’s a bunch of people who are angry because they can’t buy another boat or another house- in America most people in most places making $100k go out and spend it. We buy big homes and big cars that drink petrol. We show off and live it up. You see that less in people of this income in much of Europe, Japan, etc. because a person looks at what they make and doesn’t say “I can spend $4k a month on a home!” They say “I have $4k in my budget so I should find a place to live that is $2k or less- even if that means renting a room...”
What is normal for adults in much of the world- here we would label that as “loser” status. Not having your own place, having a quaint home that fits just your needs, efficient furniture and use of space, not owning a car, not always having the newest and best, blah blah. Even here- those in more rural settings often look at urban life with disgust and wonder how adults can stand to live without 1 acre of land between their homes.
It’s a mess and part is culture. I think- personally- that better use of things like what we call “FSA” plans or a system of government bonds etc. would be a good tool in helping clean up our healthcare system. The basic idea of an FSA is that YOU designate a certain amount of money that comes out of your pay each check. It comes out before taxes- so simple version- if you make $4k a month and would be taxed on $4k- but you put $1k in an FSA- you’ll only pay taxes on $3k, and that $1k goes to a special account that you can use to pay any medical related expenses. Often the amount you put in is “matched” in some percent so that for every $1 you put- your employer or etc. will put $1 or $.050 etc.
The catch is that you can’t withdraw that money or use it for other things. Currently there are very low caps on it and restrictions which make them only really useful to some people. But if we encouraged people to place money into an account with some type of matching and or interest- and these accounts were for medical bills and related expenses only- AND any money in the account after death was absorbed into the social medical coffers- I think that could help a lot. That and MASSIVE insurance reforms.
I think I see where you are coming from on this one- but as far as I’d be willing to go might be to label it some form of conscription or loosely- indentured servitude. However- we have the mechanisms which with cooperation inside the government could legally compel such a thing- and as the principal already exists in law- we could create a separate system that worked on similar principals and be justified by precedent.
Be it police or fire forces, education, even military forces- we offer both private options as well as a public ally funded voluntary option. Asking skilled people to join a service to their fellow citizens- or even using conscription in times of dire need of the public interest- aren’t foreign to us in law or society. One is free to enlist in the armed forces as a soldier- or work in a private firm for example. A peace officer may volunteer for police duty, be elected Sheriff, or provide private security services. There is no reason that doctors could not work for a government organization by choice, or choose to perform work in the private sector in the same capacity. So I’m not sure “slavery” applies unless we are forcing doctors to work without compensation against their will.
There's also that a national healthcare system could be argued as a matter of national defense. Even if the coronavirus is contained in the US to 1,000 people, it's already shown the potential of an actual pandemic here. Having our supply chains interrupted, having people contaminate each other just because they can't afford the care, and also need to work, and then compounding that on what is just going to be more and more of a service-based economy could be catastrophic. If anything, the perfect pandemic wouldn't actually kill, just mutate fast enough to start re-infecting people that caught a previous version. That would cripple us.
Sure doing China a lot of good.
You wanna know a little secret? Nobody is safe or protected from dedicated biological warfare efforts. Not us, not Germany, not China, not Cuba, and not Canada.
Aside from that, the argument falls apart. Following more cohesive logic, the government ought to take control of the media that actively stokes hysteria and spreads misinformation. For the same reasons and more, the internet should be shut down, all communications actively monitored, and large gatherings outlawed. Assign state forces to random homes, and empower them to check any person or property for any signs of infections with no warnings or delay (especially not from a court). For the officers safety, all peoples should be disarmed using similar methods, and any states or local governments that resist, or even object, ought to be eliminated and put under federal purview.
You ain't gotta lay it on that thick bro. Is the media blowing all this out of proportion? Yes, but it still proves a point that we are woefully under-prepared. Can you find one reason SK can somehow manage to set up literal drive-thru lines where they screen people for free, yet here the same screening costs anywhere from $3,000 to $5,000 if you don't have the right coverage? Fucking drive-thrus. We're the KING of drive-thrus!
For the safety of whoever is doing the disarming, I suggest they skip my block if they decide to do that. If I have to choose between socialism and running the country like the Gestapo in the name public safety- if vote for Bernie Sanders before support that.
American freedom is a balancing act. It isn’t supposed to be easy to be an American. Socialism can be a gateway to the gestapo- but if we let it- our fear of socialism can be just as bad or worse. The balancing act is finding that sweet spot that suits an American democracy and way of life. Democracy is another way of saying that no one gets what they want but we are all at least equally unhappy for the most part.
Again, a socialist program is funded by everyone for the benefit of society itself. We all pay taxes one way or the other. Even someone vacationing here winds up paying taxes on everything, be them local, state, or federal taxes. If someone from China wants to pay for a bus tour through Yellowstone (which.. it's actually kind of strange how often this has now become), they are paying taxes factored into the cost of buses, for gas, for paying the driver (who then pays other taxes, and this applies to pretty much everyone serving them along the way, as well), and then paying federal taxes to get into the park itself.... and actually staying in the hotel in the park!? Sooo... as our military is funded by taxes, how is that not a socialist program? Last time I asked this, you told me I couldn't see the difference. I still can't, you never enlightened me the first time.
Service is separate from and predates socialism. Maybe you could call it socialist during a draft or if conscription came stateside...
Marx can't claim every firefighter and doctor, some powers are actually legitimately delegated to the state.
Compelled service, that's something socialists have always loved, I'm glad to let the bastards claim it. National defense? That's always been a government's purview.
Wait wait... when do you think socialism began? That would make a huge dent into us understanding each other. Socialism didn't start with Marx, not even close, it was around LONG before that, he just applied an idea that already across the board for things it shouldn't be used for (justifiably), like entire economies; hence fascism. It can work for awhile, especially while at war, but in the long term it's just as retarded as an unregulated free-market. How is educating someone to be a firefighter or cop, or making sure a firefighter or cop isn't sickly, any different from the average citizen who is also contributing to society as a whole? The danger in their jobs? Chopping down timber or harvesting tuna are both FAR more dangerous than either of those jobs.
Compelled service? Since when? The first "socialist" I've heard bring that up was a ludicrous idea about "fighting climate change". I've been reading a lot over the past few days, but that was either yesterday or the day before;
I forgot if it was Warren or Sanders, but that was about it on anything mandatory I've seen mentioned.
Anyway, I literally just made a case for healthcare being a legit national defense issue, and by that logic, if national defense is of government's concern, so is healthcare. If A=B, and B=C, A=C. It doesn't matter if they are different letters.
Also, if you think this country is ever going to become isolationist, you're out of your mind. We haven't been able to do that for well over 130 years, and just over 100 years ago we learned it. REM's and coffee alone would screw this country up beyond belief if we suddenly cut access to either. It'll take a decade to get off REM's, as we'll have to build the infrastructure to refine them (we don't lack them, they aren't rare)... but there aren't many places coffee can grow, so if you'd ever want to stop the import of coffee, we're talking massive growhouses that look more like Amazon warehouses... which require electricity, which requires REM's.
I guess people could do without coffee; people can do without a lot of things... such as cars, TV's, the internet, GPS... but would the government survive the populace having those things yanked from them, even in national interest? Fuck no.
I’m inclined to agree with you both in several places. Famousone- defense is the purview of a government. Conscription isn’t a socialist virtue- it is a totalitarian one- where a state has absolute power. A lot of the confusion comes from the fact that we use the word socialism wrong. Socialism is where the community controls the primary means of production, distribution, and exchange.
If the government controls healthcare, and government controlled healthcare is socialist... that would mean... the United States Government is.. socialist. But we don’t live in a system where we all control the production and distribution and exchange of goods and property. We have private ownership. The idea that government controlled business is socialism stems from the fact that we live in a democracy that is supposed to be by the people for the people. In that sense- voters would have the ability to control- in medicine- production, distribution, and exchange- and would each “own” part of that system. You follow me?
So.... here is the hospital owned by the government. As a voter- you don’t choose the doctor or janitor. You don’t allocate the budget for the hospital. You vote for politicians who then vote for all that. You don’t decide when the hospitals will be used or where the hospitals will be deployed, how many staff to hire or how to train them or what the policies in the organization are. You don’t choose how the hospitals procure equipment. Working for the hospitals are volunteer employees who want to get paid, maybe make a career and get experience, and most likely want to make a difference and help their fellow citizens and keep them safe and healthy. Help keep American society running.
@famousone different directions? All I did was go through every point you had and debunked them in the same order. I apologize it took more words, that's an abnormal for me... ain't for him though....
And for that matter, I didn't deflect, you did.
Side note: while scrolling through to find the Watchmen discussion I noticed I said abnormal when I meant anomaly. My own course correcting is more important for me; pay no mind to this, it's just "oof".
@guest_ even you're getting the idea wrong though. Nobody that isn't idiotic.. is advocating for government control. How about a baseline and then if you want superior care (hey, if they have better track records) it's entirely possible to have that if you want it. It's not like this shit is fucking calculus. Lower the price it costs to become a doctor, give them practical experience by taking that money and paying for their costs to perform, actually evaluate them properly and rate them. Highest scores lead to notches on belt/bat/vest/suit, whatever. Even if all the government gets is the failures, it's better than nothing and the incentive to at least attain some knowledge is higher, and society still wins. We might hear about a drug addict who was kicked out and wound up saving someone else while fucked up to see the worst scenario, but that's still a better scenario than the current situation. Right now that same fucked up drug addict that didn't make it is more likely to film your
The point being, those that WANT to do make a difference without getting 250k in debt still can, just without the potential downside of betting so much upon themselves, nor being shoehorned because of mistakes that preceded them (asshole parents). Those two years now make the prospect look a lot more lucrative.... kind of like.... oh... idk... what @famousone is technically doing... just without the... getting shot at part.
@famousone At what point is more people capable of rendering medical help a bad thing? When opinions start to conflict? 99% of the time you know everyone will be in agreement; this ain't Dr. House.
Oh no- I’m not saying there aren’t many ways to create “universal healthcare” or even to improve our healthcare system. I was just trying to keep things simple because this is a HUGE and complex thing that could go many ways and we could run down all the side alleys and never get anywhere.
We'd have to go full-retard mode to fuck it up. There are over 30 models that all exist... the argument about size of nation also scales in the opposite direction, even here. Look at overhead charges from medicaid or medicare vs any insurance company. It's stupid, but it employees thousands of paper-pushers.
Uh... or perhaps civic responsibility is still a very real thing. Would you want to be thrust into a war with a bunch of sick soldiers around you? No. What's the difference between you and somebody else in the US workforce?
Civic responsibility? Don't fuck with people, people don't fuck with me. Done.
Soldiers don't get sick days, and the provider is booked until July. Drink water for a sore throat, change your socks, and Charlie Mike.
Yeah, people who admit to being wrong have balls, people who concede when they're right? Not so much.
That first line goes against the entire idea of society itself. If you want to go live in a cave, go buy a cave. Soldiers don't get sick days? What? Yeah, bull. While you're out in the field? That mantra is great, but there is no way in HELL your ass isn't getting quarantined if they know you come back with anything infectious; that's just dumb.
You think we're gonna quarantine a guy with the sniffles and a sore throat? You think diarrhea gets you out of a Change of Responsibility ceremony? "Oh, you've got a cough, so you're excused from the ruck march". Yeah, no.
You think that's dumb? That's government.
If a soldier is unable to perform their duties because of medical reasons... they get “sick days” to recover- if they can be medivac’d. If they have a critical task... usually those selected for such tasks are selected for their exceptional abilities to complete a task against exceptional challenge including health issues- but even the worlds greatest operator can reach a point where they are physically taken out of a fight, or are removed not even necessarily for their health but because they are a liability at that point instead of an asset.
I'll concede I'm right when I know you know, because somewhere behind all that is an actual brain; you made the mistake of showing it on quite a few topics. At the very least, stop with the deflections. I'll agree to end this for now until I see it brought up again so long as you stop deflecting. It'll give you time to come up with a new argument while saving face, we can still fight later, and in the meantime I can get back to Watchmen.... as I'm in an entirely different argument about bad guys but I also enjoy this movie and have time to kill. I'm at the part where they fuck in the sky... if that matters at all. I mean.. I found it to turn out to be a funny pausing point.
But none of that answers how or why we would say that it isn’t ok to force people to pay for a military to protect the public good and not for a medical corps to do the same thing. If you aren’t forcing doctors- but are taking volunteers- and you are paying, and it is to serve the public- how is this different than:
Idky I thought that... this argument isn't binding. I'll be back at the end of the movie + account for stogie time and perhaps time prepared for a meal, though I've already eaten 3x today, so the meal is unlikely.
As you say- the purview of a government is to maintain a safe and operational society- protected from internal threat, external threat, disaster, disorder... we have public sanitation and CDC and public works like water and sewage that we ALL pay for through taxes because what... a disease infested country where filth and rot are heavy in the streets is not a safe, secure, operational society. You can pay to install your own sewage system- you can hook up to county- you’re still paying tax for the sewage system because if your neighbor gets the plague- you’ll probably get it too.
Minarchism. That's my practical goal. As little state as practically possible
Keep the nightwatchman to protect internally, keep the soldier to protect externally, keep the judge to rule on disputes.
Damn you had that response time down apparently while I was pushing play to pick up on the movie. That's a hilarious backup call response right there. You didn't even do paragraphs, right to writing a fucking list!
Y'all ever seen that shit from him!? Normally each would have 500 words... @guest_ LISTED IT, just... fuck the noise, a list. Has anyone seen that, including this time, more than twice?
Minarchism is has not been tried or explored, except by the United States and her Constitution. Before we got complacent enough to let fools and authoritarians overstep their bounds.
Go bankrupt because your house was fucked, but you also happened to be paying for a cheap cast? Congrats, it's a medical bankruptcy, not an act of God bankruptcy.
But I think the statistics are not only aiming for costs of medical treatment, but they include the bankruptcies caused by longer sickness periods, as they mean periods without income.
The systems with universal healthcare I know are not only forcing employer to continue to pay your salary for 5-6 weeks of sickness, but your health insurance will cover up to 70% of your salary after that.
I terms of waiting times for treatments, I wonder how UK is reaching those figures, as I assume they are an average? Honestly, I don't have too much of a clue concerning their health care system.
I live in an almost 2 Million people city and it's not uncommon to wait 2-3 months for appointments at a specialist unless you're an emergency. In areas with fewer people, you might be having troubles to find a specialist nearby, but with lower waiting times.
But 12 months? That's a bummer, especially as I know that German doctors oftenly used to fly to the UK to do surgeries over the weekend, because they're being paid much better there.
The debt the average American is in is indeed frightening. An economy with so much of debt (and we know that vast amounts of it will likely not be paid back...?) might get into serious trouble at some point.
You wanna know a little secret? Nobody is safe or protected from dedicated biological warfare efforts. Not us, not Germany, not China, not Cuba, and not Canada.
Aside from that, the argument falls apart. Following more cohesive logic, the government ought to take control of the media that actively stokes hysteria and spreads misinformation. For the same reasons and more, the internet should be shut down, all communications actively monitored, and large gatherings outlawed. Assign state forces to random homes, and empower them to check any person or property for any signs of infections with no warnings or delay (especially not from a court). For the officers safety, all peoples should be disarmed using similar methods, and any states or local governments that resist, or even object, ought to be eliminated and put under federal purview.
I have no voluntary connection with any socialist program.
Marx can't claim every firefighter and doctor, some powers are actually legitimately delegated to the state.
Compelled service, that's something socialists have always loved, I'm glad to let the bastards claim it. National defense? That's always been a government's purview.
Compelled service? Since when? The first "socialist" I've heard bring that up was a ludicrous idea about "fighting climate change". I've been reading a lot over the past few days, but that was either yesterday or the day before;
Anyway, I literally just made a case for healthcare being a legit national defense issue, and by that logic, if national defense is of government's concern, so is healthcare. If A=B, and B=C, A=C. It doesn't matter if they are different letters.
And for that matter, I didn't deflect, you did.
Side note: while scrolling through to find the Watchmen discussion I noticed I said abnormal when I meant anomaly. My own course correcting is more important for me; pay no mind to this, it's just "oof".
Forcing people to provide aid, or forcing people to pay for it? Bad.
Soldiers don't get sick days, and the provider is booked until July. Drink water for a sore throat, change your socks, and Charlie Mike.
Yeah, people who admit to being wrong have balls, people who concede when they're right? Not so much.
You think that's dumb? That's government.
Police
Firefighters
Teachers
Public construction or road crews
Public sanitation workers
Public Civil engineers
The CDC
FEMA
Etc etc.
Keep the nightwatchman to protect internally, keep the soldier to protect externally, keep the judge to rule on disputes.
Y'all ever seen that shit from him!? Normally each would have 500 words... @guest_ LISTED IT, just... fuck the noise, a list. Has anyone seen that, including this time, more than twice?