I can agree with what you are both saying. However- I think they are trying to break it down, like as if talking to a child, because that is how an adult feels when they have to explain to another adult why they need to stop throwing tantrums because they can’t go outside and play, calm down, and put their mask on even if they “don’t wanna!” Or “it isn’t faiwr!!” Ever been in the situation where you had to explain to a particularly entitled child that not everything in the world is about them or their feelings, and sometimes we do things because we have to? Yeah. But having to have that conversation with an adult is just a really odd experience. So I think that’s where they are coming from is more like “ok. These people won’t listen to experts and don’t care about or have data- just whatever they see is what they understand... how would I explain this to a child so they didn’t get confused...?”
"These people." Lol.
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I love how every single time someone isn't wearing a mask, people immediately do the "dehumanize/dissociate/belittle so you can discount their entire argument" thing.
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I love how people not wanting the government to mandate that they wear masks are "children throwing tantrums too stupid to understand anything but the most basic of Tarzan grunts and the most ludicrous of hyperbole," but the people literally shrieking their heads off because "it's not FAIR that I can't dictate what everyone else does" are somehow on par with the likes of Plato and Socrates for all the big-braining they do. Not entitled at all.
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The pendulum swings and then rockets off into space apparently.
About as much as I want to listen to a cat being dragged across a bed of nails. Which is STILL more respect than many of them show anyone who doesn't immediately chime in with "yes, thank you, I'm a lowly uneducated slug, and you are the queen of everything."
Wait I'm not insulting anyone and try to keep an open mind but what makes you think you know more than peole who have actually studied medicine for years? It's a serious question not a rethorical trolling.
Where did anyone on this post say they know more than scientists? I didn't.
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As far as I can tell famousone didn't assert that yet so far, either (though he may well do so now - I don't speak for him).
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In the context of this post Guest_ is the only one so far that has implied he has superior intellect over anyone else on this matter.
Let's establish one thing first. At the start of this mess, I was entirely on board. Exotic and terrifying new disease straight from the East, laying swaths of China to waste and already rapidly spreading in the west? Shut everything down. Take every precaution. Even the lies and contradictions early on were excused, medicine is weird and information is always changing.
But then more information started to come in, the actual numbers and statistics. Then the double standard, "How dare right wingers protest from their cars against being imprisoned for kissing their wife?", turned into "Riots and mobs are not an infection risk nor will any action be taken to take back a part of a city that anarchists and insurrectionists conquered". Hearing my medical officers get into screaming matches with their counterparts, being told to administer interventions that my training and the medical officer know are contraindicated, watching the masses get worked into a frenzy, ect.
Hey we double commented so I didn't see your answer famousone. Ok now I'm seeing your point more clearly. Clearly we don't have the same situation at all in Europe, here we got a pretty clear result when we created the lockdown and then when masks became "strongly recommended". The curve flattened but now it's rising again due to the holiday and the evidence is strong enough to pass a law saying it's illegal not to wear a mask in closed public places. It seems more straightforward here today the least.
It all just kept building up until I realized that the issue became another sacred cow, blown entirely out of proportion and actually worsened by the bad advice, right before my own eyes. Rationality flew out the window, the narrative and goal posts keep changing "Flatten the curve" "wait for a vaccine", while my family and friends lose there livelihoods. I watch suicide and depression skyrocket in my hometown and at my unit, as a hole is dug that more than undoes every economic triumph achieved recently. And then civil liberties fly out the window as people are fined, beaten, and imprisoned for not wearing a garment to protect others from a virus with a less than a percent mortality, while looters and rioters are given props. The sheer mental gymnastics done, nevermind that curbs, swimming pools, riots, and depression are actual dangerous risks that we live with but we can't handle a virus where most infected don't even know they're sick.
It's too much, over too little.
Questioning education and questioning science is not saying "I know more than you." It's saying "what you just told me doesn't make sense" or "does this justify the the reaction you're demanding of me?"
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Anti-vaxxers claim to have science on their side. They may even have some liscenced practitioners vouching for them. I will never claim to know more a bout vaccines than them - but that does not mean I don't question the information they give me - especially when that information is intended to impact my health, autonomy, or way of life.
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Scientists were claiming eggs are bad for you. Then they claimed they were good. Then only the whites were good for you.
There's a "documentary" on YouTube of a nurse from one of the epicentre hospitals. She claims she's watched the ventilators literally be the cause of peoples' deaths. She claims she's seen the malaria drug work. She claims one of the only people she's seen recover from covid did so AFTER he removed his ventilator on his own (a ventilator that shouldn't have been put on in the first place).
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Assuming she is who she claims to be - She knows more on the subject than I do. She's been on the front line. She has the education.
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Do I blindly believe her? Or do I question what she's saying? Who she is? Whether her information is better than the information of other "experts" that directly contradict her narrative?
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What if someone I love ends up in the hospital and they want to put a ventilator in.... Which expert do I believe?
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The majority? What if the majority doesn't make sense? What if they're WRONG? If we all follow them blindly as they march us toward the incorrect solution?
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People tend to lose sight of the fact that just because the experts are claiming to be looking out for us, does not mean they are not gambling with people's lives; that they're not human; that they don't make mistakes.
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And I'm not saying which side is right or wrong in this, btw - it's just an example.
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Apologies - I know you were addressing famousone, but I just thought I'd throw this into the mix.
Actually for that matter - famousone claims to be versed in medical care and somewhat on the frontline. By all accounts he's possibly more of an expert than most of the people on this website. Why should he be discounted, and others given a voice?
Questioning science or education isn’t heresy. It’s important we do so. But... asking a question isn’t the same as stamping ones feet and throwing out 16 different reasons they don’t want to do something. People cite freedom- that has shit all to do with science or questioning science. Now that narrative has largely been rejected and people are starting to call out “SCIENCE!” Well... then ASK scientific questions. Go DO science. Go find someone to do it for you. “People should t have to wear masks” “masks don’t really work..” those aren’t questions. You’ve skipped the science except for the conclusion part.
Don’t talk about science unless you or someone else is going to go do it. Then go do it. Come back when you have compelling data. Famousone is on the frontlines and I asked him for his data or research or notes several times. None has been produced. My sister is a nurse. My brother in law is an epidemiologist in Florida- you know, that Florida, the one with all the Covid? Here’s what they say: “wear a mask.” But they only went to 6 years of higher learning and have been doing this for 20 and 40 years respectively. So I mean... I’d go with whatever the E2 (E3? Want to be fair) says in the matter. The word of an E2 carries a lot of pull around the Army, so maybe I’m wrong. Maybe we don’t need... I dunnoh... documented and reviewable facts and the scientific method- just some observations?
*that was harsh- but I won’t delete it- because I want to have it down. I want us to all stop- think- and realize that what has been said here is: “I think, something something science, a guy I know who is enlisted rank in the US army said something that basically every world government and medical authority says otherwise- but... he’s been to Texas and done blood tests. What has the WHO or those guys at Davis or in Melbourne done? Have they even been to Texas... probably not! So guy from the meme site sounds like the one to listen to. Because that is how science works. You gather observations, then based on those and your own assumptions you form conclusions...”
And as to the accusations of dehumanizing- I’m not dehumanizing anyone. It would be rather hard to name every single person who says no to masks wouldn’t it? What would you prefer? “The gaggle of ignorants” “these poor misguided fools?” Normally- I take a certain laid back approach to ignorance- but in this case we are looking at a special kind of ignorance that both manages to view itself in the mysticism of an art it clearly doesn’t understand- science- and simultaneously potentially endanger people.
I get it- “we gotta get us some of the science stuff they keep using agin’ us!” Yes. It is powerful magic. But- like any magic it is worthless to those who do not know how to invoke it. I recommend that all concerned google, or pick up a book- outlining the scientific method. That would be a good start. Then take what you are saying and thinking- and run it through the steps of the scientific method. Produce some experimental data to support it, and then let us discuss the matter as scientists. This right now is a political debate- not a scientific debate, and it isn’t a political issue beyond people making it one. It is a science issue.
Alright, let's see.
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People fought wars for their liberties. And you now say them refusing to give up those liberties easily because YOU are uncomfortable, is them "stamping their feet." And yet you don't view that as entitlement. OR hypocrisy.
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You openly state these people provide you a MULTITUDE of reasons (16) for not wanting to just give in to your demands. But you apparently have immediately dismissed them as not valid in your eyes. You have ONE reason (which apparently involves an inability to keep your distance from people no matter the setting), and for some reason you list that as being far more important.
You say people should ask scientific questions, but so far people ignore or dismiss them anytime you do.
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Fuck, I've been asking for weeks "how can you claim wearing a mask offers the wearer NO protection from the virus, but will somehow magically protect every other human being in existence from it - EVEN IF the wearer doesn't have the virus to begin with."
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No one has ever been able to provide an answer with anything resembling science (or logic) behind it in all that time.
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And, in fact, the last time I attempted anything resembling a conversation on this with you, your response was to try and limit my ability to respond to your questions. Why? I don't know. So please don't sit here and preach about how people should ask questions when you have done your own part in limiting peoples' ability to have the discussion in the first place.
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As for your relatives - you just said if someone has not done science personally, they have no right to an opinion on the matter.
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You are not your relatives. I have zero proof your relatives even exist, let alone they are who you claim they are. From a scientific point of view why should *I* - or ANYONE - value their opinion over famousone's? Or the nurse's? Or anyone else? Talking about them isn't providing "data" - it's supplying stories and asking people to treat them as fact.
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Which is FINE, I suppose, but not when you're using it as an example of how to have a scientific discussion.
And for the record - I *never* said famousone should be listened to. I said if he is to be believed. For all anyone on this website knows he could very well be making up every single thing he says about his training and experiences (no offense famousone - not saying he IS either). For all anyone on this website knows I could be a microbiologist with 37 years experience under my belt who just plays at not knowing things for my own amusement. That's how the internet works.
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But the one advantage he has over your relatives: he's actually HERE.
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And he HAS provided data in the past. Experience, statistics, medical citations. On more than one occasion. He is often open to doing so when people actually talk to him like a human being, and not like some kind of garbage wasteoid stuck to the bottom of their shoe. It's shocking, I know. Almost as shocking as how few people realize that because they DON'T talk to him like a person. Worse still, they don't LIKE the stats he provides, so they..
... often immediately discount it and blindly label him another trump-zambie, shuffling along behind the orange man blindly.
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Which, honestly, I probably did to a degree at some point way back when I first joined this site, but can't do much about that now. And that was probably more about my hate for Trump than famousone himself.
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Anyway now I'm on a tangent I don't want to be on, and this is already going to be too fucking long. So, back to whatever the fuck I was saying:
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Should famousone - or any random scientist/doctor/etc be listened to over the "majority authority?"
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I don't know. Considering that when Covid first started it was rogue doctors and teachers etc who tried to warn is. The Chinese government immediately tried to discount those doctors. Said they were wrong, they were liars, they were endangering people by exaggerating. And we know how that turned out. And many of those doctors and teachers ended up black-bagged for what they did.
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It's almost like - SOMETIMES - the people in power, giving us their information, don't have our best interests at heart.
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Sometimes listening to the majority in power isn't the right course of action. Famousone could well be the one person speaking sense. How would any of us know different?
"I'm not dehumanizing" he says, as he carries on belittling and dehumanizing the people who don't share his viewpoint.
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I have no idea if this will sound like a personal attack, but it's not meant to when I say: so much of everything I've ever heard you say about covid - right or wrong - does not sound like it's coming from a place of science. It sounds like it's coming from a place of fear, which gives way to condescension, closed-mindedness, and anger.
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Which is your right. And honestly fine. But it's also not the kind of rhetoric I'm used to seeing from you.
This is honestly draining a lot of my energy at this point so I will likely read your response, but I may not end up replying. Which is relevant to no one, really, but my end goal wasn't to ignore you I guess is my point
I have to admit when I saw "a simple example: the urine test" I was expecting some far more common situation. Guy on the right should start potty training.
@cakelover@famousone
Moving this over here just in case either of you decide to respond to guest_ so I don't interrupt the flow of the conversation
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lol tbh I'm not actually good at conversing. I have trouble organizing my thoughts when I'm actually having to SPEAK them out loud.
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PS - cakelover don't take the downvotes seriously. If you ever observe one of famousone's posts there is literally someone who stalks him and downvotes him within minutes of any comment he makes. I'm half suspicious they may have actually somehow set up a bot to do it. Seriously. I've seen his comments get downvoted within seconds, and over nothing at all. If you agree with him you will be downvoted as collateral.
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Plus, as I've said, a lot of people cannot tolerate anyone saying anything that isn't "staple the mask to your face immediately, and smile while you do it."
Why the downvotes?
I correctly pointed out the logical fallacy in this post
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I love how every single time someone isn't wearing a mask, people immediately do the "dehumanize/dissociate/belittle so you can discount their entire argument" thing.
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I love how people not wanting the government to mandate that they wear masks are "children throwing tantrums too stupid to understand anything but the most basic of Tarzan grunts and the most ludicrous of hyperbole," but the people literally shrieking their heads off because "it's not FAIR that I can't dictate what everyone else does" are somehow on par with the likes of Plato and Socrates for all the big-braining they do. Not entitled at all.
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The pendulum swings and then rockets off into space apparently.
You dare question the educated? Blasphemy!
You refuse to give up control? Oppressor!
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As far as I can tell famousone didn't assert that yet so far, either (though he may well do so now - I don't speak for him).
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In the context of this post Guest_ is the only one so far that has implied he has superior intellect over anyone else on this matter.
But then more information started to come in, the actual numbers and statistics. Then the double standard, "How dare right wingers protest from their cars against being imprisoned for kissing their wife?", turned into "Riots and mobs are not an infection risk nor will any action be taken to take back a part of a city that anarchists and insurrectionists conquered". Hearing my medical officers get into screaming matches with their counterparts, being told to administer interventions that my training and the medical officer know are contraindicated, watching the masses get worked into a frenzy, ect.
It's too much, over too little.
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Anti-vaxxers claim to have science on their side. They may even have some liscenced practitioners vouching for them. I will never claim to know more a bout vaccines than them - but that does not mean I don't question the information they give me - especially when that information is intended to impact my health, autonomy, or way of life.
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Scientists were claiming eggs are bad for you. Then they claimed they were good. Then only the whites were good for you.
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Assuming she is who she claims to be - She knows more on the subject than I do. She's been on the front line. She has the education.
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Do I blindly believe her? Or do I question what she's saying? Who she is? Whether her information is better than the information of other "experts" that directly contradict her narrative?
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What if someone I love ends up in the hospital and they want to put a ventilator in.... Which expert do I believe?
.
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People tend to lose sight of the fact that just because the experts are claiming to be looking out for us, does not mean they are not gambling with people's lives; that they're not human; that they don't make mistakes.
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And I'm not saying which side is right or wrong in this, btw - it's just an example.
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Apologies - I know you were addressing famousone, but I just thought I'd throw this into the mix.
I would genuinely love to have a long, in-depth conversation with you sometime
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People fought wars for their liberties. And you now say them refusing to give up those liberties easily because YOU are uncomfortable, is them "stamping their feet." And yet you don't view that as entitlement. OR hypocrisy.
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You openly state these people provide you a MULTITUDE of reasons (16) for not wanting to just give in to your demands. But you apparently have immediately dismissed them as not valid in your eyes. You have ONE reason (which apparently involves an inability to keep your distance from people no matter the setting), and for some reason you list that as being far more important.
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Fuck, I've been asking for weeks "how can you claim wearing a mask offers the wearer NO protection from the virus, but will somehow magically protect every other human being in existence from it - EVEN IF the wearer doesn't have the virus to begin with."
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No one has ever been able to provide an answer with anything resembling science (or logic) behind it in all that time.
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And, in fact, the last time I attempted anything resembling a conversation on this with you, your response was to try and limit my ability to respond to your questions. Why? I don't know. So please don't sit here and preach about how people should ask questions when you have done your own part in limiting peoples' ability to have the discussion in the first place.
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You are not your relatives. I have zero proof your relatives even exist, let alone they are who you claim they are. From a scientific point of view why should *I* - or ANYONE - value their opinion over famousone's? Or the nurse's? Or anyone else? Talking about them isn't providing "data" - it's supplying stories and asking people to treat them as fact.
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Which is FINE, I suppose, but not when you're using it as an example of how to have a scientific discussion.
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But the one advantage he has over your relatives: he's actually HERE.
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And he HAS provided data in the past. Experience, statistics, medical citations. On more than one occasion. He is often open to doing so when people actually talk to him like a human being, and not like some kind of garbage wasteoid stuck to the bottom of their shoe. It's shocking, I know. Almost as shocking as how few people realize that because they DON'T talk to him like a person. Worse still, they don't LIKE the stats he provides, so they..
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Which, honestly, I probably did to a degree at some point way back when I first joined this site, but can't do much about that now. And that was probably more about my hate for Trump than famousone himself.
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Anyway now I'm on a tangent I don't want to be on, and this is already going to be too fucking long. So, back to whatever the fuck I was saying:
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I don't know. Considering that when Covid first started it was rogue doctors and teachers etc who tried to warn is. The Chinese government immediately tried to discount those doctors. Said they were wrong, they were liars, they were endangering people by exaggerating. And we know how that turned out. And many of those doctors and teachers ended up black-bagged for what they did.
.
It's almost like - SOMETIMES - the people in power, giving us their information, don't have our best interests at heart.
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Sometimes listening to the majority in power isn't the right course of action. Famousone could well be the one person speaking sense. How would any of us know different?
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I have no idea if this will sound like a personal attack, but it's not meant to when I say: so much of everything I've ever heard you say about covid - right or wrong - does not sound like it's coming from a place of science. It sounds like it's coming from a place of fear, which gives way to condescension, closed-mindedness, and anger.
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Which is your right. And honestly fine. But it's also not the kind of rhetoric I'm used to seeing from you.
Moving this over here just in case either of you decide to respond to guest_ so I don't interrupt the flow of the conversation
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lol tbh I'm not actually good at conversing. I have trouble organizing my thoughts when I'm actually having to SPEAK them out loud.
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PS - cakelover don't take the downvotes seriously. If you ever observe one of famousone's posts there is literally someone who stalks him and downvotes him within minutes of any comment he makes. I'm half suspicious they may have actually somehow set up a bot to do it. Seriously. I've seen his comments get downvoted within seconds, and over nothing at all. If you agree with him you will be downvoted as collateral.
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Plus, as I've said, a lot of people cannot tolerate anyone saying anything that isn't "staple the mask to your face immediately, and smile while you do it."