"Birthing People"

Telling people they should give a shit about how YOU feel about language and what YOU want to be called and how important inclusivity is... well, it just rings excruciatingly hollow when you lose your mind on those same people for expressing contempt when deplorable language terminology like this is being directed their way.

I didn't say the post said anything about Mother's Day, it was an example. The tweet complains that women are no longer called mothers, but instead "birthing persons". My point with the example is to show that saying "birthing persons" does nothing to take away from women or mothers.
And yeah, I consider the post transphobic. People in the comments are talking about how they won't "appease" trans people. A quick twitter search for "birthing person" and "menstruator" will show that most of the tweets are complaining about trans people. I know you cropped out the person who wrote the tweet, but I've seen the tweet before, OP is a radical feminist.

It's not dehumanising language. We haven't replaced the word "woman" with "birthing person" or "menstruator". Just as we haven't replaced the word "man" with "people with erectile dysfunction". But when we have an ad for people with erectile dysfunction, and they are called thusly, nobody's like "we live in a dystopia where men can't be called men". Because not every man has erectile dysfunction, and not everyone with erectile dysfunction is a man. This isn't 'literally The Handmaid's Tale zomg', it's concise, inclusive language, and the only people getting upset are people who found out that it includes trans people. Remember, I was born a woman. I consider myself a feminist/egalitarian.

There absolutely are people out there trying to have women referred to this way.
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So let's make this incredibly simple since you're incapable of not taking this personally for some reason:
-If you are not a person who wants women to be called birthing people, congratulations the post doesn't apply to you! Kindly step off the soap-box and stop wasting literally everyone's time claiming to be some sort of victim by proxy
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-I'm a woman. I find it dehumanizing. So do many, many, many others. Why is it YOU get to decide what language is dehumanizing for the rest of the human race based on your gender? Please explain why you feel your feelings outweigh other peoples? Please explain why women expressing dissatisfaction at a title being forced on them is "transphobic" behavior -- and do it with the minimal amount of irony possible.

-the post doesn't say "literally the Handmaid's Tale." It says "one step closer" to a Margaret Atwood novel. She did write other books, and "one step closer" is LITERALLY not "literally the Handmaid's tale." But I understand that, in order to make this post an attack on yourself you have to invent and hyperbolize stances it didn't take
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-"the only people getting upset are people who found out that it includes trans people."
Literally not why people are upset. Certainly not me or people like me. Stop projecting.

"And yeah, I consider the post transphobic. People in the comments are talking about how they won't "appease" trans people."
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1. There were two comments ahead of yours when you posted yours. Not one of them said what you are claiming they did. Why are you inventing things to justify your outrag?
2. Then you are literally turning the phrase "transphobic" into a joke and are one of the single largest hypocrites I have ever encountered. And to think you're masquerading as "for inclusion" while attacking a strawman you encountered somewhere else entirely
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I'm sorry the internet hurt you at some point in your life, but that you need to stop taking your fragility out on other people.
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This post didn't mention trans. You did. You once again derailed an entire post to your own weird agenda.

-"most of the tweets are complaining about trans people."
No one mentioned Twitter but you.
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-"Remember, I was born a woman. I consider myself a feminist/egalitarian."
I literally could give less of a fuck. Your gender and that other shit doesn't make one speck of difference to me. But nice to know you seem to think it should, despite the fact that (and I say again): This post isn't about you.
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There are women that exist that find this language dehumanizing and it has nothing to do with trans people.
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Since this is such an incredibly hard pill for you to swallow the only thing I can suggest is start chugging water, and don't stop until it's all the way down. It should be easy since you spend so much time self-felating to your own disingenuous takes.

@silvermyth
I normally don't tag people back to these kinds of threads but this comment you made:
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"I know you cropped out the person who wrote the tweet, but I've seen the tweet before, OP is a radical feminist."
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Please show me this person's Twitter. Please. Show me who you think made this tweet. I'm fascinated to know.
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Eagerly awaiting your citation -- if you can provide one. Doesn't have to be to this exact tweet, just the person themselves.

This report utilizes data from the CDC’s Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System (BRFSS) to estimate the percentage and number of adults who identify as transgender nationally and in all 50 states.3 We find that 0.6% of U.S. adults identify as transgender. This figure is double the estimate that utilized data from roughly a decade ago and implies that an estimated 1.4 million adults in the U.S. identify as transgender
williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/
So much anger because .6% of people don't feel included by the word woman.

Just because a percentage is small doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant. In the U.S., there are 10,5-13 suicides per 100.000 people. So that’s ,000105-,00013 which seems tiny. But would you argue that we shouldn’t care about the feelings of those affected by suicide?
Keep in mind that not everyone wants to tell the government that they’re transgender. There are a lot of us, more than people think. Already two of us in this very comment section. It costs 0 dollars to think about the feelings of others.

"Feelings of others", huh?
I think xvarnah is trying to make it clear that her feelings, and those of other women, are pretty affected by what is an organized attack on female identity.

-You literally insist - no, better still, you seemingly WANT a post that didn't mention trans people to be an Attack on trans people. I'm not sure why you want trans people to be attacked to this degree but it's honestly a really bizarre thing to do
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-You have either been egregiously mistaken or you have knowingly and willingly lied over the course of your self-victimization. I sincerely hope it was a mistake, because if you are lying for no reason other than to make yourself look more like a victim you are goddamn pathetic and need to grow up.
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-You have actively taken the stance that women are not allowed to express in any shape whatsoever if they find a word dehumanizing. To make absolutely certain they can't express this opinion you have labelled them with the slur "transphobic." And yes, like Nazi, when used incorrectly that is a slur and has the power to destroy lives. Has done so in the past. The NUMBER of lives is irrelevant. "just because the percentage may be small..."

And after doing all of this you still have the gall to sit there on your throne of hypocrisy and preach about how every person's feelings matter. How important it is to listen when people feel unhappy about how society views them.
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"It costs 0 dollars to think about the feelings of others."
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And apparently it costs less than that entirely to disregard their feelings if that person doesn't submit to YOUR ideals of acceptable gender decorum.
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Well done.

Look, if you mean “women,” say “women.” If you mean “people who menstruate,” say “people who menstruate.” Not all people who menstruate are women, and not all women menstruate. Not even all cis women menstruate. The same goes for people who give birth and people who go through menopause, etc. There are issues which affect exclusively women, and there are issues which affect exclusively people who menstruate. It’s not the same category.

Now *there's* a pretentious technicality right there.

I'm honestly beyond annoyed that people think it's acceptable to turn a post about women expressing discomfort over terminology into a fucking "attack on trans people."
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I'm sorry people can't cope if the spotlight of the universe isn't directly shining on them at any given time, but their corrupt and fallacious approach to this post is beyond ridiculous.
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That people think it is FINE to sling words like "transphobe" and "TERF" on a fucking whim shows how much value they really put into those terms. How little regard they have for the damage done by their destructive, dishonest, and petty behavior. That they use this terminology while attacking other people... while preaching about inclusivity.
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Some of the most deplorable encounters I've ever had the misfortune of experiencing on this website.
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Shame the fuck on them. Assuming any of them can take a break from dictating to the rest of the population to actually feel such an emotion.

Why? You literally came into the post and decided who was pushing the comments -- and labelled a person a TERF based on the fact they don't like women specifically being called shit like "birthing person"
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I did respond to the substance of your comment which consisted of:
"Here's a thing no one said on this post. How can I twist it to make this an attack on something I want to screech about?"
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I recommend you watch "the Lion, the witch, and the audacity of this bitch" you disingenuous slur-slinging pile of absolute hypocrisy.

I said the tweet is TERF stuff, not the author necessarily, nor you. Read the comment again please. And then once again, for good measure.
I didn't decide to twist anything, the post says "omg people are labeling women 'menstruators'!", I just reacted to what it said. (And also for context this is a very common TERF argument/"concern". Idk if you're unaware of that or just playing ignorant as a gotcha so I'm just mentioning it to let ya know.) I really don't get how you got to the conclusion that I'm somehow being disingenuous by literally just reacting to what the post says.
But it's alright, whatever's going on in your life you seem to be coping with it by throwing personal attacks at people who disagree with you. I hope that whatever's going on, it can get resolved quickly and successfully. Last year, and this year so far for that matter, haven't been kind to people's mental health. I'd suggest you seek professional help rather than insulting people you know nothing about, eh?

Silly quips aside, you really seem to not have realized that this "menstruator" argument is an extremely common TERF talking point, along with stuff like bathroom "concerns" and assuming that all trans women are secretly rapists. That's why I called it TERF stuff. If someone makes a post about how capitalism is bad and we should abolish private property, is it wrong to call the post a commie post when it didn't specifically mention it's a commie post?
Anyway, let me clarify. Nobody except for that one idiotic brainfart article actually refers to women as "menstruators". This notion that "people" do is a lie pushed by TERFs. It's fake outrage over a thing nobody actually says. Therefore the concern that we're being dehumanized is completely baseless in this case.
In reality, you're way more likely to be seen as a birthing cow by religious conservatives than the wokes. After all, Atwood's most famous novel is about a fundamentalist christian dystopia.

Lmao speaking of "fake outrage over things that weren't said..." The post doesn't mention trans people remotely -- but feel free to continue manufacturing your own outrage at a point you DECIDED the post made.
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And, as always, don't let a little thing like reality get in the way of your grandstanding! I understand such trivial things as facts and context can really bog down your attempts to see villainous transphobes 'round every corner.

"I'd suggest you seek professional help rather than insulting people you know nothing about, eh?" - rich from the person slinging slurs about people she knows nothing about (after forcing her own words down their throat). You're the one that came in here and started insulting people, so please cry more when your arguments are once again countered.
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And for the record, as far as I can recall, that's ALL I've insulted about you. The arguments you make, the hypocrisy you brandish like some kind of medal of honor. Your complete lack of Self-Awareness.
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And my responses to you are all based on the words you spew. That's all they NEED to be based on.
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You, meanwhile, cannot differentiate between a difference of opinion/an insult and a wish for your death.

-"like bathroom "concerns" and assuming that all trans women are secretly rapists"
And speaking of telling boldfaced outright lies (is this a specialty in this chat now? Seems to be a running theme) - the vast majority of people that have bathroom "concerns" don't think all trans people are rapists. They think rapists will exploit rules put in place for "inclusivity."
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But nicely done - mocking the concerns women (and men, but hey, they don't count I guess) may feel about potentially higher exposure to predators in places where security is minimal.
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Remember: every person's feelings matter... unless, apparently, they're not trans.
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Every percentage matters, no matter how small.... Unless they're women (or men, but luckily they still don't count) about rape. Then we use "quotation marks" and call them liars to prop up our own nonsensical arguments. All of which were entirely unrelated to the original post.

Since you know the term "TERF" I wonder... what's the term for a TERF in reverse?
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Someone who prioritizes trans people above all others, belittles other peoples' "concerns," goes on the attack at the mere perception that someone might make a point they disagree with.... dismisses their feelings and fears and pain because.. Well, they're just not as important as a non-binary. And someone who dares to do all these things while lecturing about mental health!
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You've given a glimpse into this warped hierarchy that apparently exists in your mind.
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And I can safely say I find what you've shown me to be absolutely deplorable. Thanks for making that clearer -- I feel like I know you a bit better now, which should give you some consolation when you're sitting there apparently taking everything I say as a personal attack on every one of your ancestors. Probably your cow, too.

Well, in any case... how does Atwood's depiction of a fundamentalist Christian society correlate with the actual perceptions of real people? I would genuinely enjoy some solid evidence in favor of the idea that religious conservatives are more likely to see women as "birthing cows." Conflating reality with media does not seem to be the best course of action, because I guarantee you that we can find any piece of media and claim that it is "evidence" of some depraved weirdness. Like using "The Night of the Hunter" to suggest that non-clergy Christian preachers are "more likely" to be completely deranged.

How does “spending seventeen years attending a church that was an integrated member of a major Evangelical denominational conference and regularly preached that the highest, if not only, call of a woman is to bear and nurture children, and heard preached from the pulpit and in everyday life that the source of most ills in society is women taking men’s roles by working outside the home and taking birth control” strike you?

A swing and a miss, truth be told

We can use thought experiments to justify any range of things, up to and including the idea that we live in a computer simulation. The real pudding I want is data.

Look, a primary tenet of Southern Baptist theological thought, since the late 70s/early 80s is something called called complementarianism, which so far as I can tell is based almost entirely on Paul’s (fucking Paul) statement that he does not allow women to teach in the church. Complementarianism is the belief that while man and woman are nominally EQUAL before God, they are given SEPARATE roles in the home, the church, and society at large (separate but equal… now why does that phrase sound familiar? It never, ever actually ends up equal). Guess what one of those “complementary” roles is, on the “womanly” side?
The Southern Baptist Convention’s (SBC) own website, in its values statement, in the “Family” section, clearly states that a man’s role is to provide for and lead his family, and a woman’s role is to submit to her husband’s leadership… in the same way the Church submits to Christ (creepy af)… and in managing the household and nurturing the next generation.

(Side note about this creepiness: the statement spends a section giving lip service to separation of church and state, but heads up a separate section by saying it’s Christian duty to “seek to make the will of Christ supreme in our own lives and in human society” and then for extra weird goes on to state that no effort to improve society can ever actually be helpful unless it’s rooted in the grace of God through Jesus Christ, i.e., Christian.)

Well, clearly someone doesn't understand nuance, or even concepts as basic as "Church and State", nevermind the separation therof.
Maybe Southern Baptists are fucked. I don't know. I don't care. They aren't the ones trying to hurt me.

>speaking of "fake outrage over things that weren't said..." The post doesn't mention trans people remotely
Sigh. So you really don't get it. You've been making TERF (TRANS Exclusionary Radical Feminists for those uninitiated) talking points here and sharing a TERF post. And you act surprised when trans people are brought up?
Show me one slur I made towards a person during this conversation. Meanwhile I can count like five you've thrown at me. There's one in like your every comment in this thread. This is really a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
>the vast majority of people that have bathroom "concerns" don't think all trans people are rapists.
I didn't say they were. I was listing examples of TERF talking points, hence the word AND in the sentence. You really gotta work on your reading comprehension, this isn't the first time this has happened.
As for the last quip, you don't know me at all, child. You know the strawman, nay, boogeyman, you've made of me in your head.

@diminuendo There are a lot of talking points on the matter from Fundamentalists/Christian conservatives, like "a woman's role is to be a mother and nurturer", "a woman must submit to a man's will/be a helper" or as @abel_hazard already mentioned, the concept of complementarianism, which yeah, "equal but different roles" but actually in reality not equal.
Bear in mind, I didn't say they're likely to see a woman as a birthing cow in general. Most people are more complex than that even with religious indoctrination. Just more likely than the wokes, comparatively.

I love how no matter how far along we go your point still remains that anyone making the claim that a woman disliking being called a birthing person automatically makes them:
1. A liar, because not one person has ever attempted to call a woman that, ever. At least in your reality.
2. In line with a fucking RADICAL. Lmao. Like those are your exact words. A radical.
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The woman who, once again equates being disagreed with to a violent death wish. Calling people saying "I don't wanna be called that" in line with radicals.
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Methinks you play a little fast and loose with words you don't understand.

Alright, kid. I promise not to call you a birthing person not to offend you, how's that sound? Just to throw off the numbers since it's a daily occurrence for you apparently.

>"As for the last quip, you don't know me at all, child. You know the strawman, nay, boogeyman, you've made of me in your head."
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Alas, corpsicle. I'm afraid you've demonstrated very well who you are. At least on these matters.
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Disingenuous and a delusional. Someone who uses smokescreen and outrage to make sure no opinion but your own can be heard.
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Someone who makes a lifestyle at playing a simultaneous white-knight and victim on a memesite -- trying desperately to slay the easiest targets in existence for crimes they never committed.
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You're that braying sheep from Zootopia. And absolutely as hypocritical in every way shape and form.
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Believe me, I didn't invent you in my head. I don't have the capacity to conjur a creature as thoroughly ridiculous as you lol

Ewqua for the last time -- I'm not interesting in having anything you possess in my mouth. Stop trying to force things in there - words or otherwise - to make yourself feel good.

Lol, ok kid. Close your bedroom door at night, else I'll hide under your bed and scare you. And eat the cake your mom made for you, too.

Stop picturing yourself in my bedroom or anywhere near my bed you sad, strange little weirdo lol
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And I'm 99% sure cakelover doesn't want your mouth anywhere near him either :P

Yeah, cakelover probably wouldn't like me, I'm not very good at baking cake. I do make awesome nachos out of red lentils though.

What the actual fuck is wrong with you, ewqua?

Since I've realized I can't get an actual honest argument out of y'all, I'm just joking/trolling around at this point.

^the saddest thing about all this is that she wasn't joking to begin with lol. She firmly and unironically and without any effort at Self-Awareness believes everything she says lol

No, kid. That's not the saddest thing here.
The saddest thing here is the two of you feeling so self righteous in your verbal fellatio and having no perception of the outside world or yourselves to the point you think you're in the right when your arguments have been nothing but ad hominems and fallacies. Read the thread again in a few hours when your hormones have calmed down, eh? Maybe you'll get some perspective.

The saddest thing is that you seem eager to kick dogs that were perfectly happy to stay asleep, just so you can play the victim and try to prop people up as strawmen-excuse me-strawpersons, only to lash out when we refuse to accommodate your echo chamber. And potentially your mental illness, which I suspect is some form of narcissism independent of, though potentially fed by, your dysphoria.

^ she's not taking it seriously anymore remember :P

Alright, famous. Bother making an actual substantive argument or are you just gonna armchair diagnose me here, clever pants?
Ah, why do I bother. I already know that you have nothing of substance to say.

Take a peek at my comment to silver and Abel. That's really what my thoughts boil down to. Or hell, check out my sole comment that's not a reply in this post.
What ever happened to live and let die? You don't need our validation, and we sure as hell don't want yours.

That... is a valid point lol. Well just remember to keep your shoes on in that case (hopefully you have those). The internet does strange things when exposed to bare feet

Do socks and/or slippers count? I find those much more homely than shoes.

They seem to help at any rate haha, although your back may object before long
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Edit: Nvm I see you've decided to enter the fray. In that case nothing short of military grade steel-toed, hip-high waders are acceptable
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Godspeed

It can't be worse than a snowstorm. I'll just wander out in my sneakers.

Oh my sweet, summer child. Then again, if you keep your expectations reasonable (avoid asking for things like "staying on topic," "facts" or "logic")... who knows? You might do alright

I'll be totally honest. At some point in time, I gave up with trying to find reason with people on the Internet. Either the person I engage with presents themselves clearly, or I stop taking them seriously. It's so easy for people to feel right and honestly, good for them. It's not my responsibility to teach people the basics of argumentation, much less how to separate emotion from logic. Nowadays, I just sit back and laugh unless the other person actually is trying to learn how to argue better. lol

Which is a smart way to be haha
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Tbh I used to try and be more accommodating to other peoples' arguments. Some of them it's genuinely worthwhile, whether we agree in the end or not.
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But after multiple run ins -- including with at least one person on this thread -- I discovered there is no actual dealing with some people haha.
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They come in dishonest from the get-go, with an agenda, and won't stop until they've created a villain. It's entirely unproductive.
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The best usually to be obtained from interactions like that is see how much of their own bias, lies, and ridiculousness they're willing to commit to "ink"... and, when it's entertaining enough, mock them during the process

I mean, I'm usually willing to give people the benefit of the doubt that they're not actually trying to be disingenuous. It just happens to be that whatever they're trying to argue, they're either too emotionally invested in their ideas or they've been indoctrinated by a malevolent ideology. But either way, I'm not getting paid to counter them, so I won't bother unless someone (politely) asks me to comment on those arguments.
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Although, sometimes I do come uninvited and pop in with just a question. If I don't get a genuine answer, that's about when I choose to leave stage left. That way, I keep my sneakers squeaky clean, despite the... mess.

Ah yeah, to clarify -- I don't typically make a habit of going from 0-60 with strangers or one offs haha. That tends to be reserved for repeat offenders.
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I prefer to approach people with a similar amount of respect as they've demonstrated haha
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I can see your point about not being paid to counter people. Definitely right. And you certainly have admirable self-restraint in that regard haha
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For me, it does get exhausting seeing people preach ideology unchallenged, and I personally find it insane that people are allowed to screech other people into submission, or label anyone who disagrees with them with a word. And then use that word to destroy that person's entire life. All because they're too fragile to tolerate that someone might not share their opinion.
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I'm not sure you necessarily need an invitation on this forum, haha, but either way. Whatever gets you to the other side with whatever substitutes as your sanity (and sneakers) still intact is a viable strategy I'd say

Well, it's not like I strictly need to be invited, but it's just easier for me to be happy if the reason for my participation is as emotionally detached as I hope to be from my own arguments.