The argument is often something like "But that is who they really are; they're a boy in girl's body or vice versa, or some non-binary identity"
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I suppose you could say that if they're mature enough to make that call to the point of physical alterations, then they're old enough to consent to sex
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I don't like where this could lead
One of them relates to their own body, the second one to possible exploitation of this body for rape by someone else, hence the necessity of protection measures.
One of them also goes with discussions with the family and doctors, the other can be less thought-through and involve pressure -assuming we're not talking straight-up abuse with the adult lying.
But, the argument is sometimes made that some can be groomed into being trans too.
Well the legal age for surgery (which is mutilation only if your surgeon's bad) is 18, rarely under and if so, always with mandatory parental consent. Higher than for cosmetic surgery. Higher than the age of consent in some states. So except for a limited number of case-by-case patients, children who consent to having their genitals mutilated are in fact 18+ who can have sex.
Then, you can say that stopping puberty is technically an alteration, but by this logic "old enough to want to keep a child bod" doesn't go well with "old enough to have sex".
You could make the argument that it's not rape if a child agrees to sex? (Obviously psychological consent, not legal consent as they're not able to do this)
There is no shortage of 13 year olds that consented with someone of their own age, why can't they consent with someone older? The discussion also goes both ways, if they discuss sex with parents and doctors what's the issue?
(In case it needs saying, these are not necessarily my views, I'm engaging in thought experiments and discussion here)
There are precedents: some hippie communities in the 70s also questioned this rule they saw as arbitrary, on these grounds. Law proposals had been made to change this, on the grounds that children were consenting and liked it. And then, children that had grown up talked and sought help because despite having consented at a time where they didn't fully understand (yet thought they did), they qualified this as a trauma, and it was judged that a symmetrical adult-child sexual relationship didn't exist. (you can look up Pierre Verdrager, The forbidden child, who explained the social mutations around pedophilia quite nicely)
Someone their own age, being equally immature, doesn't have the ascendance an adult has over them. They're both discovering, too. (they're also physically more compatible)
So behind problems that practice has put to light, these are the key ethical reasons, the pressure is far, far different and it can be argued that they don't know what they consent to because they haven't actually discovered it yet, only at best in an immature way.
If they discuss having sex specifically with that one person with family and doctors in a way that makes sure there is in fact no grooming, the issue is far lessened, as they have an educated adult opinion that can undermine a disbalanced relationship power.
But this looks like "lab conditions".
There's also plenty of people who transitioned, thinking they understood what they were doing, and lived to regret it
The data shows that around 80% of kids who express desire to "transition" simply grow up to be gay adults in their original, biological sex
I'm gifted and I can definitely tell you it's not a good idea, the two don't go hand in hand. We're also only 2% according to most estimations.
And then, as for developing earlier, the problem is: how do you qualify and quantify it? Establish it? Developing soon enough to do a 13yo and to have mature sex with an adult are paradigmatically different, as said above. That would require for super early maturity, which courts have estimated isn't frequent enough to be worth it, some even say it's not possible due to brain maturity. (note: when I said "children complained", I meant in general, a huge lot, I didn't mean it as "some")You could say it's illegal unless proven that the child is mature enough. But in practice, there are all the possible drifts that would go with a blurriness in definition. It would be hella concerning because with a pretty discourse it could harm children who are victims. Some could also be afraid of reporting it -even more so than they can currently be.
As for transgenders, given the 80%, are you talking children who turned out preferring their birth gender? (If so, they're already not allowed surgery if not considering careful case by case, so that seems sensible)
Or are you considering adults? In this case they were people with a fully formed brain, who weren't in a direct relationship of power with someone more knowledgeable and experimented and thus are fully responsible for taking their decision alone. (this would be equivalent to a 13 yo regretting doing another 13 yo, not an adult)
The data I've found for regrets is 2.2% (767 persons followed over 50 years) (and another found out that Dutch trans men had a better quality of life than those born males, with more than 90% satisfaction ratios, from which regrets can be inferred).
(I did see a "makeshift" survey that gathered 203 responses on social media, which is both high for the time it was available and low considering the number of transgenders. Mainly, it would have been more intelligent to make a survey that asked people if they were happy with their transition, to compare numbers. Nor sure of the relevance of this, but I didn't find studies where a lot of people regretted transition so I took this)
This is from an article dated from 2017
"Despite the differences in country, culture, decade, and follow-up length and method, all the studies have come to a remarkably similar conclusion: Only very few trans- kids still want to transition by the time they are adults. Instead, they generally turn out to be regular gay or lesbian folks. The exact number varies by study, but roughly 60–90% of trans- kids turn out no longer to be trans by adulthood."
http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html?m=1
Ok so the 80% were for children. My numbers were for adults who actually regretted after completing the transition, hence the discrepancy.
I'm gonna look up the studies they mention (tomorrow), but then it looks like indeed, children are both too young for sex and irreversible surgical changes, which isn't the plot twist of the year, but it was a nice conversation :)
Sure, I believe adults should be able to do what they want with their own money as long as they don't encroach on others
But yes, I should talk with you more often
Even though I know where I stand on this, I like that this turned into a fairly intellectual discussion instead of the trashfire that normally devolves from mentioning this
For reference ICD-11, the International Classification of Diseases 11th Revision, classifies pedophilia as a disorder under 6D32 Pedophilic disorder;
"Pedophilic disorder is characterised by a sustained, focused, and intense pattern of sexual arousal—as manifested by persistent sexual thoughts, fantasies, urges, or behaviours—involving pre-pubertal children. In addition, in order for Pedophilic Disorder to be diagnosed, the individual must have acted on these thoughts, fantasies or urges or be markedly distressed by them. This diagnosis does not apply to sexual behaviours among pre- or post-pubertal children with peers who are close in age."
Interesting, thanks! I did know of some associations working to help cure pedophilia before people acted on it, but I thought having fantasies was sufficient to be diagnosed even if not to the point of distress. The more you know!
.
I suppose you could say that if they're mature enough to make that call to the point of physical alterations, then they're old enough to consent to sex
.
I don't like where this could lead
One of them also goes with discussions with the family and doctors, the other can be less thought-through and involve pressure -assuming we're not talking straight-up abuse with the adult lying.
But, the argument is sometimes made that some can be groomed into being trans too.
Well the legal age for surgery (which is mutilation only if your surgeon's bad) is 18, rarely under and if so, always with mandatory parental consent. Higher than for cosmetic surgery. Higher than the age of consent in some states. So except for a limited number of case-by-case patients, children who consent to having their genitals mutilated are in fact 18+ who can have sex.
Then, you can say that stopping puberty is technically an alteration, but by this logic "old enough to want to keep a child bod" doesn't go well with "old enough to have sex".
There is no shortage of 13 year olds that consented with someone of their own age, why can't they consent with someone older? The discussion also goes both ways, if they discuss sex with parents and doctors what's the issue?
(In case it needs saying, these are not necessarily my views, I'm engaging in thought experiments and discussion here)
Someone their own age, being equally immature, doesn't have the ascendance an adult has over them. They're both discovering, too. (they're also physically more compatible)
If they discuss having sex specifically with that one person with family and doctors in a way that makes sure there is in fact no grooming, the issue is far lessened, as they have an educated adult opinion that can undermine a disbalanced relationship power.
But this looks like "lab conditions".
Seems you could make a case by case argument, no? There are plenty of people who are gifted and/or develop earlier
The data shows that around 80% of kids who express desire to "transition" simply grow up to be gay adults in their original, biological sex
And then, as for developing earlier, the problem is: how do you qualify and quantify it? Establish it? Developing soon enough to do a 13yo and to have mature sex with an adult are paradigmatically different, as said above. That would require for super early maturity, which courts have estimated isn't frequent enough to be worth it, some even say it's not possible due to brain maturity. (note: when I said "children complained", I meant in general, a huge lot, I didn't mean it as "some")You could say it's illegal unless proven that the child is mature enough. But in practice, there are all the possible drifts that would go with a blurriness in definition. It would be hella concerning because with a pretty discourse it could harm children who are victims. Some could also be afraid of reporting it -even more so than they can currently be.
Or are you considering adults? In this case they were people with a fully formed brain, who weren't in a direct relationship of power with someone more knowledgeable and experimented and thus are fully responsible for taking their decision alone. (this would be equivalent to a 13 yo regretting doing another 13 yo, not an adult)
The data I've found for regrets is 2.2% (767 persons followed over 50 years) (and another found out that Dutch trans men had a better quality of life than those born males, with more than 90% satisfaction ratios, from which regrets can be inferred).
"Despite the differences in country, culture, decade, and follow-up length and method, all the studies have come to a remarkably similar conclusion: Only very few trans- kids still want to transition by the time they are adults. Instead, they generally turn out to be regular gay or lesbian folks. The exact number varies by study, but roughly 60–90% of trans- kids turn out no longer to be trans by adulthood."
http://www.sexologytoday.org/2016/01/do-trans-kids-stay-trans-when-they-grow_99.html?m=1
I'm gonna look up the studies they mention (tomorrow), but then it looks like indeed, children are both too young for sex and irreversible surgical changes, which isn't the plot twist of the year, but it was a nice conversation :)
But yes, I should talk with you more often
"Pedophilic disorder is characterised by a sustained, focused, and intense pattern of sexual arousal—as manifested by persistent sexual thoughts, fantasies, urges, or behaviours—involving pre-pubertal children. In addition, in order for Pedophilic Disorder to be diagnosed, the individual must have acted on these thoughts, fantasies or urges or be markedly distressed by them. This diagnosis does not apply to sexual behaviours among pre- or post-pubertal children with peers who are close in age."