I just don't think it matters. Although I have heard that scientists basically managed to create genderfluid rats,so maybe that means they can create rats that aren't male or female and learn more about gender as a whole.
Until it is an undeniable factor of science then and only then will i accept multiple genders. Same as how i was with homosexuality after reading up on it i learned that most well observed animal species showed signs of same sex behavior then i started to accept as it was part of nature.
Well, yeah, but from context, we mean complex animals, with self awareness and culture. Maybe ravens and dolphins have some sort of weird complex understanding of gender. We just don't know.
I can't find the study in which the scientists changed the genders of the rats (I'm searching for it right now and will provide a link once I find it) but I'm preeetty sure the scientists didn't hit any rats on the head. It had something to do with rats' DNA if I recall correctly.
"Pete's got a long sharp knife,
starts choppin and don't know when to stop
all you fellows gotta watch your wives
'cause Pete don't care whose meat he chops"
Same! Thank you for voicing your opinions respectfully.
17Reply
deleted
· 8 years ago
Gender is a social construct. Like, here: you are a girl so we bought you dolls. Sex, though, is where only two exist. Well, three for hermaphrodites, but generally only two.
Gender and sex is different. Sex is boy or girl, essentially what you were born as, and gender may be both, neither or a mix that people classify themselves as.
Honestly, no disrespect to transgenders, gender nonconformists or whoever, but people need to start to accept that it's an actual mental disorder to have a different gender. I'm prepared to get down voted but idc. I'm not gonna sugar coat it. I'm gonna tell it exactly how it is.
Because your brain is malfunctioning if you are a man but think you are a woman. I'm not saying you can't think that, but it isn't normal, and trying to get us to think that it is normal is stupid. Abnormal doesn't always mean wrong.
I don't want to sound straight out of tumblr, but that is actually offensive. Coming from a person who loves being roasted and rarely gets offended. Regardless if you believe it's a mental disorder, I wouldn't say that to anybody. And I guess I'm an Internet stranger and have zero influence on you whatsoever and you won't take me seriously, but still. It's kind of fucked up to say someone has a "mental disorder" for thinking differently.
If someone identified as a one-time person, and wanted to cut off their right arm, it would be a mental problem right? It's still their choice and doesn't hurt anyone at all though. Similarly transgender and genderfluid are IMO mental disorders that really don't affect other ppl so they're free to do what they want. But they're still mental disorders imo
No one identifies as that though, you're comparing apples to oranges. If you compare a transman to a nut case who chops limbs off, that's unfair. It's not a mental disorder.
That's human nature. Some have it more than others. I'm sure you don't like every aspect about yourself, everyone wants to change SOMETHINGS, some more drastic than others.
Yea, and then it gets drastic to the point where it's a mental disorder. Example: It's normal to want to be clean and orderly, but when you take it too far, you're diagnosed with OCD, a mental disorder.
It is an actual mental problem, but pretending it's more than that- some kind of Devil thing; is downright stupid. It doesn't mean we should be mean to people with this problem.
Tis not a mental problem, ye peasents. Shall a man choose to be feminine, so be it!
Okay, trying to avoid sounding like a crazy feminist, but... If a man decides to be feminine, that's not a mental problem. If a wlman wants to be masculine, it's not a mental problem... What's the issue?
@notsameersinha, you are both wrong and right at the same time. It began as a Mental Problem, there are people like that because of Mental Issues diagnosed, however you are right, but not how you think, it's because people are treating this like we treat things like OCD, where they use the Mental Disorder as a way to do what they want, for example there are people who are Transgender or Genderfluid or act Masculine when they are Female because they have a mental disorder, their brain is telling them that they are Trans or Genderfluid or that they are a Man when they are actually a Woman, when that became more commonplace people began using those Mental Disorders to get their way, people began getting Sex Changes because they thought they were a Man or a Woman and they "had" that mental disorder, when in reality they just wanted to be the other gender. It was a Mental Disorder but now is just people saying things to get their way.
@steam Okay, now I'm really going to sound like a crazy bitch, but...
What if a man just happens to like feminine things (makeup, feminine clithing, etc.) and they feel uncomfortable using those products and doing those feminine things? Society has said that it's weird for men to be cheerleaders and wear makeup, but what if a man still wants to do it and feels he needs to be a woman to act like society's interpretation of a woman?
And that's the thing we should be doing. We should be embracing people to be able to do things like that but not embracing people to change who they are. I have "feminine traits". I like "chick flicks" and I played with dolls when I was little and I like playing house and looking at home decorating. But that doesn't change who I am as a male person and I don't feel obligated to "act like a man." That's what we should be embracing. We should be embracing people to feel comfortable doing whatever they enjoy doing. Not changing their biological make up.
@ilikemoderation
I agree that we should embrace these people and not change who they are, but only partially. I don't entirely agree with embracing these people as I said before, I would have agreed were it that the majority was the people who have mental issues that cause this, that is no longer the case, a majority is people are treating this in a way comparable to OCD, where people "self diagnose" to make it seem normal for them to change, I do not and will never support that. I don't agree with a lot of the things that people are trying to make acceptable in society, this is one of them, it's a Mental issue and people have no right to "self diagnose" to become accepted for their feelings as it's disrespectful to those who have the mental issue. If you want to be a man but your a woman don't self diagnose yourself with something, just act more like a man, there are ways to be accepted for who you are without disrespecting those who can't change.
This website is trying really hard to be the anti-tumblr group who shoots down everything. Times are changing, things are being accepted more so nowadays, it's just how the world works. Go ahead and downvote me. I really don't care, but for the love of God, try to be more open minded.
But that argument can be made about your views too, because the people you're arguing against disagree with your views. Yknow what I mean? You should ask yourself if you're correct, because there are so many people FOR this cause. The logic there is really stupid, come at me with another argument and maybe we can have a conversation about this.
3
deleted
· 8 years ago
Of course, a number of people screaming over something doesn't mean they are right. But i said, thinking something is real doesn't make it so. And certainly there are more points in favor of binary gender rather than.. Hexadecimal? Idek
Im so bored of this topic. Why do people really care so much? On one hand, let people call themselves what they want it doesnt hurt you, on the other why do you have to be a special snowflake and call yourself something else? Seems like a call for attention. Also, unless im dating you, i dont give a shit if your straight or gay. Im just so tired of everyone giving then selves labels, or making them up. Just be a human you shouldnt need all these ridiculous titles to make it seem like your special.
I dont get why this site has become so overruled with opinions and argument starters. This was supposed to be FUNsubstance. Its supposed to be fun..youre basically just ASKING for arguements..
bloody hell, every day the same old shit... some stupis as fuck 12 year old twat posts his/her bloody unpopular opinion just to piss other people off. i can't remember the last time i had fun on FUNsubstance, and that is kinda sad.
I agree- you don't find animals that decide to become the other gender because they feel like it. (apart from humans and sequential hermaphrodites)
But seriously, there is a reason we are born either as female or male- to reproduce. That is the only reason we even have different genders...
Seems like the poster and most people confuse the sexes and gender of people..
Since people wants "proof"..
The World Health Organization (WHO) describe "gender" like so:
"Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men - such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can
be changed."
Importent words here being VARIES and CAN BE CHANGED. So people link gender and sex and only come out with 2 as the right number, well. That doesn't make them right. Just uninformed, wrong or narrow minded.
*sees there are 73 comments*
Hmm. According to my calculations, this section should be 43% people waiting for the shitstorm, 53% people stating their personal opinions and refusing to see anyone else's side, 3% intelligent and civilized debates, and 1% bitching about how every comment section on this damn site about a topic that is slightly controversial is the same, and how I die a little inside every time I open one.
You're allowed to have your opinion, so why did you feel the need to try and cause a shitstorm over it? It's your opinion, just know that it's not going to change the fact that there are people who feel more comfortable in their skin and mind identifying as/calling themselves one thing or another. That's all it boils down to, is that it's something people do so they can feel more comfortable. I mean, I'm not asking you to change your opinion, but you should at least recognize that some people truly feel better with how they identify. I'm personally cis, so I'm a girl who is comfortable as such, I just must imagine it must be hard to feel like you don't belong in what you're more naturally assumed/forced into being. You do you, just make sure you don't go out of your way to hurt anyone who identifies as something else. As long as you don't use your opinion hatefully or disrespectfully, then....kumbaya and shit.
Hey everyone, it's the science side of Funsubstance. You all are of course allowed to keep your own opinions, but here's what science says:
Human beings (even hermadaphrodites) have one of two chromosomes: and X or a Y. This dictates your sex. Girls are XX and boys are XY. Gender may be up to more interpretation, but as far as sex goes, you cannot biologically change what you were born with (but you can change it legally with an operation)
Some animals have more than 2 genders. Some flora, fungi specifically, have thousands, even, but this isn't the case for humans. Our chromosomes may be one of two types: nothing else.
Gender dysmorphia is currently classified as a mental disease, and you can argue over the moralities of that, but fact remains that evolutionary-wise, this would not be favored since it doesn't favor offspring, (though of course it's still possible). As far as "normal" goes, since less than 50% of the population of humans has this condition, safe to say, it is not
considered normal, statistically. That isn't to say there's 'wrong' with anyone who has it, or that they need to be fixed, that's only to say that most people do not have it, so it isn't considered normal.
Love all you beautiful human beings, you. If you have any questions, complaints, ask/complain :) for now, science-side out
But you see there's a difference between being bigender and a fire truck, you shitface.
Just
Because
You don't understand it
Doesn't mean you should mock it.
Learn to tolerate it.
what, are you from the 1960's?
Because you sound like it.
@lovinohaspasta
Are you a Hetalia fan? And also, while you are, for the most part, correct, there is no point in arguing with these people. There is a reason why the user is called correct 3 and not simply correct.
That really sucks. Sometimes I get downvoted for no apparent reason..... Oh well. Well, you seems cool with me. We can be friends or friendly people who have met before.
Actually
It's not just now that different genders other than male or female are a thing.
It's happened all throughout history.
Just like lgbt people.
It's just now that people start giving a fuck about things that don't affect them.
Pro tip: if you want to argue,don't tell someone to just Google it. Linking to articles and sources aside from Wikipedia really strengthens your argument.
Fine. According to the Human Rights Commission, gender is "One's innermost concept of self as male, female, a blend of both or neither – how individuals perceive themselves and what they call themselves. One's gender identity can be the same or different from their sex assigned at birth." (http://www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-terminology-and-definitions)
UNESCO Gender Equality in Education states: "Gender roles are created by a society and learned from one generation to the next. Because gender roles are socially learned, they can be changed to achieve equity and equality for women and men. For instance, we can change the gender roles of “women as child caregivers” to “women as income earners,” “men as income earners” to “men as child caregivers,” or, better yet, “men and women as income earners and child caregivers.” (http://www.unescobkk.org/education/gender/what-is-gender-equality/)
To summarize, gender is a social construct that is fluid and doesn't have set points. Genderspectrum.org has 58 identifiable genders, and even Facebook offers those choices. San Francisco State University and Colorado College are offering non-conforming gendered housing, and most professors and university staff I've worked work now include their preferred pronouns in their correspondence. While I assume most people are cisgendered (meaning their gender identity corresponds with their biological sex, but I couldn't find any studies or surveys about numbers), there are many, many other genders out there.
Okay, but essentially, those links you've provided are turning up dead ends for me for some reason. And they appear to not actually be from any scientific boards as far as i can tell, more like social studies essays. But apart from that, i think the point was that there are only two genders. You can go around creating genders willy nilly, it wouldnt change the actuality of the situation.
gender; plural noun: genders
1.
the state of being male or female
"traditional concepts of gender"
the members of one or other sex.
"differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age"
Thats the official defenition of gender.
Odd...hopefully these ones work (http://www.unescobkk.org/education/gender/what-is-gender-equality) (http://www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity-terminology-and-definitions)
Who is officially putting out that definition? Because it looks a lot like the one that shows up when you Google gender.
Also, straight for the American Psychological Association: Gender refers to the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a
person’s biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as
gender-normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations
constitute gender non-conformity.
Gender identity refers to “one’s sense of oneself as male, female, or transgender” (American
Psychological Association, 2006). When one’s gender identity and biological sex are not
congruent, the individual may identify as transsexual or as another transgender category (cf.
Gainor, 2000).
(https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf)
They say that gender is tied into cultural expectations of your biological sex, but even then, there are at least three of those (male, female, and intersex). Gender identity is how an individual person sees themselves. So, gender and gender identity are two very different things.
See the problem with that argument is that according to that source anyone that acts as a societal "male" is then classified as a male and vise versa. Gender Identity is in no way a psychological thing because if a female "acts like a male" that does not classify her as a male. She is still female. There are plenty of females that act "manlier" than some men but it doesn't change that they are female. Just like I personally have more than a few "feminine" qualities but I am a male. That's it. There is no question about it.
Oh and Pripyatplatypus the only link I could get to work and bring me to a page was the one from unescobkk.org and it brought me to a page that talked more about gender equality and the roles of gender than gender identity
I'm not here to say that there is not people who feel that they are a different gender than they were biologically created because it is damn near impossible to prove that it is or isn't possible. I'm just saying that there is no evidence either way. Personally I believe there are two genders because biologically there are. You are created a man or a woman. If you're a man and want to "dress like a woman" or "act like a woman" than by all means embrace that side of yourself. But personally I don't think it changes your gender. And to clarify I mean no disrespect for anyone who does identify as another gender. I am just speaking my beliefs and if yours are different than I'll agree to disagree and we can grab a drink together and be life long friends.
starts choppin and don't know when to stop
all you fellows gotta watch your wives
'cause Pete don't care whose meat he chops"
Since
Ya know
This is FUNsubstance
Okay, trying to avoid sounding like a crazy feminist, but... If a man decides to be feminine, that's not a mental problem. If a wlman wants to be masculine, it's not a mental problem... What's the issue?
What if a man just happens to like feminine things (makeup, feminine clithing, etc.) and they feel uncomfortable using those products and doing those feminine things? Society has said that it's weird for men to be cheerleaders and wear makeup, but what if a man still wants to do it and feels he needs to be a woman to act like society's interpretation of a woman?
I agree that we should embrace these people and not change who they are, but only partially. I don't entirely agree with embracing these people as I said before, I would have agreed were it that the majority was the people who have mental issues that cause this, that is no longer the case, a majority is people are treating this in a way comparable to OCD, where people "self diagnose" to make it seem normal for them to change, I do not and will never support that. I don't agree with a lot of the things that people are trying to make acceptable in society, this is one of them, it's a Mental issue and people have no right to "self diagnose" to become accepted for their feelings as it's disrespectful to those who have the mental issue. If you want to be a man but your a woman don't self diagnose yourself with something, just act more like a man, there are ways to be accepted for who you are without disrespecting those who can't change.
Something isn't real just because you think it is
That Aang can save the world!
verb
refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.
"he ignored her outraged question"
But seriously, there is a reason we are born either as female or male- to reproduce. That is the only reason we even have different genders...
Since people wants "proof"..
The World Health Organization (WHO) describe "gender" like so:
"Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men - such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men. It varies from society to society and can
be changed."
Importent words here being VARIES and CAN BE CHANGED. So people link gender and sex and only come out with 2 as the right number, well. That doesn't make them right. Just uninformed, wrong or narrow minded.
Hmm. According to my calculations, this section should be 43% people waiting for the shitstorm, 53% people stating their personal opinions and refusing to see anyone else's side, 3% intelligent and civilized debates, and 1% bitching about how every comment section on this damn site about a topic that is slightly controversial is the same, and how I die a little inside every time I open one.
Human beings (even hermadaphrodites) have one of two chromosomes: and X or a Y. This dictates your sex. Girls are XX and boys are XY. Gender may be up to more interpretation, but as far as sex goes, you cannot biologically change what you were born with (but you can change it legally with an operation)
Some animals have more than 2 genders. Some flora, fungi specifically, have thousands, even, but this isn't the case for humans. Our chromosomes may be one of two types: nothing else.
Gender dysmorphia is currently classified as a mental disease, and you can argue over the moralities of that, but fact remains that evolutionary-wise, this would not be favored since it doesn't favor offspring, (though of course it's still possible). As far as "normal" goes, since less than 50% of the population of humans has this condition, safe to say, it is not
Love all you beautiful human beings, you. If you have any questions, complaints, ask/complain :) for now, science-side out
Just
Because
You don't understand it
Doesn't mean you should mock it.
Learn to tolerate it.
what, are you from the 1960's?
Because you sound like it.
Are you a Hetalia fan? And also, while you are, for the most part, correct, there is no point in arguing with these people. There is a reason why the user is called correct 3 and not simply correct.
And yeah I am, but it's also my name.
It's not just now that different genders other than male or female are a thing.
It's happened all throughout history.
Just like lgbt people.
It's just now that people start giving a fuck about things that don't affect them.
UNESCO Gender Equality in Education states: "Gender roles are created by a society and learned from one generation to the next. Because gender roles are socially learned, they can be changed to achieve equity and equality for women and men. For instance, we can change the gender roles of “women as child caregivers” to “women as income earners,” “men as income earners” to “men as child caregivers,” or, better yet, “men and women as income earners and child caregivers.” (http://www.unescobkk.org/education/gender/what-is-gender-equality/)
gender; plural noun: genders
1.
the state of being male or female
"traditional concepts of gender"
the members of one or other sex.
"differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age"
Thats the official defenition of gender.
Who is officially putting out that definition? Because it looks a lot like the one that shows up when you Google gender.
Also, straight for the American Psychological Association: Gender refers to the attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a given culture associates with a
person’s biological sex. Behavior that is compatible with cultural expectations is referred to as
gender-normative; behaviors that are viewed as incompatible with these expectations
constitute gender non-conformity.
Gender identity refers to “one’s sense of oneself as male, female, or transgender” (American
Psychological Association, 2006). When one’s gender identity and biological sex are not
congruent, the individual may identify as transsexual or as another transgender category (cf.
Gainor, 2000).
They say that gender is tied into cultural expectations of your biological sex, but even then, there are at least three of those (male, female, and intersex). Gender identity is how an individual person sees themselves. So, gender and gender identity are two very different things.