Yup. I knew if my pops said to stop an I did something anyway I’d get my butt beat. One time my mom smacked me for doing something dumb so I hit her back an she picked up a broom and began to put some lumps on my head. I grabbed it out of her hands, broke it over my knee an said to “back off bitch”. She was dumbfounded. I walked back into my room thinkin I was a big man, I was bout 15-16,. Well when my pops came home he didn’t check to see if my door was locked or not. It an the door frame came flying into my room. The last thing I remember was his fist coming at me. I woke up with a big knot on my forehead an busted lip. I deff never hit nor talked back to my mom again. Nor did I ever call my dad out to the yard. Like a buddy of mine did. He got his butt handed to him by his dad. That was some very funny stuff to watch.
Negative reinforcement is taking something, Positive reinforcement is give somthing. Giving a spanking is positive punishment, Incentives are positive reward, and both are positive reinforcement.
well spanking is perfectly fine as long as you let your kids know that you hate it as much as they do the way my dad does, and timeouts never worked on me or my siblings. we have had spankings since we got responcabilities (so around 8) and im one of the least violent people in my school.
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· 6 years ago
Could, not will. Anecdotal evidence does not disprove a correlation or causal relation
I’m with ya @famousone. As long as it’s not over the top punishment. Like they ate candy after ya said not to so ya busted their lip or they slammed a door so ya take an electrical cord to their face. I felt my dad giving me spanking when I did wrong for stuff I knew was wrong helped me know that I was gonna get disciplined for my wrong actions. He also praised me for stuff I did right as well. I cut the grass he said good job or a hug for doing my homework. I grew up ok, I think. I haven’t been arrested for anything,. I feel as long as the punishment was not over board then parents should be able to spank them.
I’d argue that you shouldn’t be hitting adults either. In the ultimate sense of a world “perfect by virtue” perhaps. In the real world we do in fact hit adults. War is an extension of this. Maybe Hitler or Osama Bin Ladin just needed a firm talking to- they certainly tried on both accounts. But in our imperfect world sometimes people need hit. Violence is a tool. It shouldn’t be your only tool, it should seldom if ever be your first tool. But a tool none the less to be employed when one lacks the ability or depth of tools for a task.
I do think that while spanking is essentially hitting your kid you need to place limitations on such a broad explanation. Spanking is hitting a very specific part the anatomy that while causing immediate and sometimes intense pain does not cause long lasting or debilitating injury. Especially if only a hand is used to spank. Now granted using a switch or belt can cause welts to appear or in extreme cases even break skin. Even then the over all damage is less than say a punch to well just about any other part of the anatomy. But regardless of the method of punishment the sole purpose is to place limitations on your kids behavior and then enforce those limitations as soon as they are broken and within a reasonable level given the infraction. A bad example would be to not punish them until you've "had enough" and then go postal on them.
Sound advice in general not just for kids. Many people have a tendency to let things go until they reach a breaking point. That’s not healthy for them, and not fair to others either. If we set peoples expectations of how we want to be treated and then suddenly blow up; we seem unstable. It seems sudden, random, and disproportionate. If we don’t consistently reinforce things it confuses people around us. They don’t know how their actions will effect our emotions or how we expect to be treated. Wether it’s gifts, dating, work, kids, friends,etc.- if we do this they can’t know what we expect and after finding out we were holding back they’re left to wonder what else secretly are holding on to, or what other areas we don’t know ourselves well enough. It reflects badly on us and leaves a confused person with doubt and regret who thinks they have to walk on egg shells going forward. Communication is key, use your words early and well.
I was spanked exactly twice as a kid, both times for wandering off, the first time I nearly fell into a river and the second time was at a county fair. After that I never wandered off again. I never resented my parents either for it, they were nothing but good to me especially during my young and stupid early adult years. I'm also far from violent unless you consider self defense violent and even in those few cases I prefer to exit the situation over physical conflict.
Am I the only one reading this who was never spanked? I just got grounded for a long time if it was really bad. My brother was grounded for 6mo for wandering off and breaking a few major rules in the process. If you feel like spanking is the only way you can teach your kid fine, don't overdo it and use your hand so you understand how hard you're hitting. But it's not a requirement to discipline a kid.
I’m against this only cause it was strongly miss used in my case. Any little incident led to a “spanking” which in most cases involved a thick wooden stick, multiple times with the metal end of the belt, or sometimes with a spatula, in cases of being somewhere other than home. I definitely don’t plan on using this technique on my children as a punishment reinforcement.
Now I’m majorly against that. I don’t like it when I hear a parent/ authority figure call a child a “fucking dumb piece of shit” when the kid was walkin on his shoe strings, instead of stopping & having his I guess dad retie them. I was about to say something to the dad but my ollady stopped me an said I didn’t need to be fighting in public with a stranger I knew nothing about & espacally when we had our demon seed with us, she was 2-3 then,. Ollady later said that I probably could have caused the kid & if he had any bros or sis at home, to get more insults or even hit, if I would have gotten involved. Cause the dad may not have anybody else to yell at or he could even blame the kid for him gettin in trouble. But I do know if I see an adult hit/ punch a child or yelling/ screaming profanity's at a child or mental/physical handicap person now. I’m deff gonna do somethin about it. An I hope others will do the same.
Yes sir!! Now my kid can leave an go to security or go lock herself in my truck if she has to. An then call her mom to come get her if I get arrested. Cause kinda like the divorce BS. If I was to beat the shit outta a dipshit who was to abuse his child in front of me. I’d be the one going to jail cause I should of only recorded the incident an call the police instead of taking matters into my own hands. Oh well if jail is the only thing I get for protecting a child that’s gettin punched in the face by a adult then so be it.
Violence is never a solution, especially with kids, but there is a huge difference between abuse and authority. And if you slap your kids once because they got you mad, it's also ok to tell them "I'm sorry, adults also make mistakes". But all kids are different : some are nice, some are terrible. It looks like none of you have ever met a toddler abusing his parents. I was used to travel a lot and once, I remember I was on a train with a dozen of young kids. All were very quiet and kind, but there was this one little piece of shit disturbing everyone because he was always yelling and screaming for absolutely NOTHING. And his mom acted like it was all normal and said stupid things like "oh sweetie, why are you doing that ?". It was a 5 hours trip... trust me, I don't care when a baby is screaming because it's a damn baby with basic needs. But this kid was a a true demon and in that case, he would have deserved at least a little tap at his bottom with a good time's up.
A child doesn't know the difference. They don't understand that the punishment is caused by their behaviour, and it's likely the most pain they've ever felt in their young lives. It doesn't teach them a lesson or correct their behaviour, it shows them that people they love and trust will hurt them for reasons that don't make sense to them. Spanking is abuse because a child cannot developmentally comprehend the difference.
Maybe a three year old wouldn't understand, but you aren't giving kids enough credit.
Hell, I have a cousin who's parents thought like that, and the little fucker knew too. Fucked up my room and said "I'm too little to know any better". Needless to say, his parents didn't believe me, but my parents backed me when I beat him anyways.
@unicycle- you began stating kids couldn’t understand the difference between punishment and abuse, and end by saying a child would make a connection between people they love and trust hurting them for reasons they can’t undestand. This would imply the child doesn’t understand they did wrong. If the child doesn’t understand, what is there to punish? I would never punish a snake for eating a pet mouse. The snake doesn’t understand. That’s on me for allowing the situation to occur no? So if your child can’t even understand they did wrong or what that wrong is- no punishment you use would be effective. I suggest waiting until your child is older than “infant” before using discipline so that they may have the capability to understand the link between actions and consequences, and regardless of the style you use to communicate why they are being punished, what is expected, and to be consistent in expectations and outcomes.
Research shows that physical punishment is harmful to children of all ages. It may work temporarily to stop the behaviour, but is not an effective deterrent in the long run because children don't understand the punishment's connection to their behaviour and don't know other ways of behaving. Because physical punishment isn't effective long term, parents may resort to more and more severe methods. The best strategy is to talk to children about why you don't want that behaviour, give them alternative ways to do it, and use time outs/cool downs if necessary. Elizabeth Gershoff is a leading researcher on physical punishment if you're interested in more info.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. Children don't understand the connection between the punishment and their previous behaviour. Many parents don't explain why the punishment is being given. My suggestion included having a dialogue with the child where they can ask questions and have things explained to them in a mutually calm situation. Again, sorry, and I hope that clears it up.
May I interfere? As I said, I used to get spanked as a child and each time I knew perfectly well what for. Which led to me not doing those things anymore. Also have you ever tried just talking to a child about how you don't like a certain behaviour? Or seen a parent do this? If you did, you'll know that 95% of the time it doesn't work.
I have a 5 year old and a 2 year old and I've never had to hit or raise my voice to either. While I was pregnant I read much of the research literature on parenting. I also taught a rehabilitation and training class for parents who abused their children. So for every story you have of spanking helping you learn a lesson, I can tell one where it led to pretty severe abuse because it didn't help control the child's behaviour.
I do explain it
"You touch my fishtank again and I beat your ass"
He touched it after that. I beat his ass. He never touches it again
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· 6 years ago
"does anyone else see the disconnect?" - probably not the ones who can grasp more than 4 or 5 words in a row. There was context, either you didn't get it or you purposely ignored it.
@halfdeadhammerhead- There is a clear disconnect. “Many parents don’t explain why the punishment is being given.” Well no shit? If you haul off and go medieval on anyone without telling them why, they won’t understand the link between the two things. The same is just as true of a “time out.” There’s a reason they have to actually accuse you of a crime before they pass a sentence in a court. You have no hope of defending yourself, and can’t likely understand what you did wrong at all if you aren’t told. So comparing kids not understanding a link between physical punishment and behavior if it isn’t explained, and any other punishment which is explained is a stilted comparison. Physical discipline may not be the best or first choice in punishment, but we are literally wired to understand violence. Before there was language we spoke through our actions. Some of the earliest human ancestors remains discovered show signs of human on human violence. It’s a primitive tool but a tool the same.
@unicycle- as stated to halfdead it is a tad stilted to compare any explained punishment to unexplained physical punishment. As for abuse- abuse doesn’t even have to be related to anything a child did, just the issues of a sadistic or mal adjusted parent. My personal experiences with abuse and physical punishment are just that- personal. What worked or didn’t work on me as a child isn’t how I would tell you to raise your children who I don’t even know. As their parent you know them though and are lucky to have kids who respond well to other discipline. We want to trust blindly in the system to help- but ask most kids who have been through the system what helped. Take a child who hurts others, threatens their parent with knives. Put them to the systems solutions. Last I checked juvenile services or even adult corrections record on turning lives around wasn’t that great. Use what works for you. Violence shouldn’t be your “go to” or a solution save when all others are exhausted.
As much as I love debating, I know that many people won't just take a stranger's word for it. My anecdotes mean as little as yours compared to empirical, peer-reviewed research. So I'm urging you guys to look into it yourself, read the relevant research, and see what science has to say. There is a pretty strong consensus that spanking is at best ineffective and at worst harmful. This is a divisive issue, even among scientists, because nobody wants to admit that theirs' or their parents' parenting style may have been wrong and it's impossible to remember our experiences from childhood with 100% accuracy. Anyway, please look into it yourselves because I strongly believe it's important that we all understand what's best for children.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-science-says-and-doesn-t-about-spanking/
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· 6 years ago
@guest_ I have quoted famousone and referred to his posting. I don't see how anything I said has anything to do with what you said addressed at me. Just saying...
@halfdeadhammerhead- I may have misunderstood your post, so please set me straight if I did. I understood that in reference to famousone you were stating that there was no disconnect in the logic of unicycles previous statements, and I was meaning to point it there was in fact a disconnect. I apologize if that was an incorrect assumption.
@unicycle- “The studies do not discriminate well between non-abusive and overly severe types of corporal punishment,” Larzelere says. “You get worse outcomes from corporal punishment than from alternative disciplinary techniques only when it is used more severely or as the primary discipline tactic.”
“In a meta-analysis of 26 studies, Larzelere and a colleague found that an approach they described as “conditional spanking” led to greater reductions in child defiance or anti-social behavior than 10 of 13 alternative discipline techniques, including reasoning, removal of privileges and time out (Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review, 2005). Larzelere defines conditional spanking as a disciplinary technique for 2- to 6-year-old children in which parents use two open-handed swats on the buttocks only after the child has defied milder discipline such as time out.”
They go on to state the inherent flaws of such studies including their own. If we look back through history....
.... at what leading doctors and researchers recvomended we will find advice to touch children as little as possible, never hug them, let them cry, give babies coffee, and more gems. We can’t ignore science, and if one considers psychology a science one must admit it changes rapidly and often in self contradictory ways. So yes- studies that set out to show the harm of spanking show the harm in it- and most researchers regardless of their beliefs in the data (and imho) most sane people at the least advocate physical discipline sparingly, contextually, as a last resort, and as part of a comprehensive system and not as a universal tool to all problems. But you state your opinion as fact despite your own sources acknowledging there isn’t conclusive proof only compelling evidence. To each their own I suppose.
I never meant to state opinions as facts; I apologise if it came off as such. The very nature of science means that you can never conclusively "prove" anything, especially for a subject such as this. Because it would be unethical to assign some children to be spanked and some not, the only studies that can be done are correlational. Meaning that we can't say that spanking causes problems, only that problems seem to be associated with spanking. So we have to look at the body of research as a whole and see that there are more dangers than benefits associated with physical punishment.
@unicycle- Id upvote your last comment 1,000 times if I could. That’s a hard thing for people to grasp and a discussion I’ve had too often. There is no “done” in science, only working theory. To be clear- I believe hitting a child out of frustration or anger is dead wrong (it may happen but that’s something a person needs to work on and not repeat.) I believe that in a perfect world no child would ever be hit because people would ha e the tools, and behavioral therapy would be able to reach all children and be accessible to all parents easily. I believe a VERY small percent of children would justify physical punishment- and only where other better tools had failed or were lacking. So it seems we overall agree but don’t see eye to eye on some fine points. That’s ok though. I think and wish for you that your little ones will grow up just fine under your watch and ways. Wisdom, compassion, and love should guide parenting, followed closely by a practical concern for a child’s future.
It’s an important distinction, and one that personal experience may trump in our own minds but not in fact. You could get liver disease from drinking heavily. One person may know someone who had that happen after only a few drinks in their life, another may know someone who drank like a fish into their 90’s before dying of unrelated causes. They might scoff at “could” and say they know that’s false, but both those cases are statistical outliers. There is the hard part. You could find a winning lottery ticket tomorrow. Too many hugs could turn your child into a serial killer. While many things are improbable, all things are possible even if to an infinitesimal degree. So “could” is somewhat of a cheater word for when we want to make a strong statement of correlation and probability, but lack the verification to do so. Really, anything has “could” in parenthesis before it as no outcome of natural events is known with all certainty before a fact.
Good question. I’ll bite. Why can we let them starve or live on the street at 18, but not at 16? Why can we use either bathroom at 5 but not at 25? Why can we lock a 30 year old in a dark cell with no physical contact but can’t do it to a 10 year old? Why can we assassinate bin laden in his home but not the kims or a serial killer? Why can a police officer shoot an unarmed man on the ground and not go to jail but you can’t? Why can’t I believe it’s butter? Why do we make children go to school because they are ignorant, but let adults vote or have a platform when they’re ignorant? Life can be strange. Unless we apply critical thought. Then it’s still strange, but maybe we see why certain things are as they are.
all im saying is that people will go against dicipline because it's a christian value, but they won't defend a unborn child because the bible says not to kill, and abortion is killing.
There are two flaws there which stem from the same source and at least two more glaring flaws here. Discipline, and aversion to physical punishment can be said to be held within Christian values, but they are not themselves Christian values. You’ll find arguments pre dating Christ or even Judaism on the issue, and concurrent ideas from areas of the world not exposed to or not particularly concerned with Christianity. The next major flaw is that not all people against abortion are against it because of the Bible. Again, being against “killing children” is not a Christian exclusive. People of all or no faiths tend to be against killing children. You an also be anti abortion for other reasons than a belief it is “child killing.” The other flaws are: the Bible never says not to kill. In many places it encourages killing. The Bible says not to murder. God sets up capital punishment as well as endorsing open war in Exodus, Judgement, Revelations, and more. God uses killing as a tool...
.... and has servants kill in the name of God. Including the first born children and babies of Egypt who surely themselves had done nothing wrong? Secondly a flaw is that there is debate on the opinion wether a fetus is even a child. The Christian Old Testament is based on the Jewish scriptures and gets its values there where not superseded by the word of Jesus Christ. The ruling in many forms of Judaism is that up to 30 days isn’t a human. Scientifically there is debate as well. Heck, 20% of pregnancies abort themselves. So there are some hard flaws in you argument, and the basis of your argument relies upon not only someone sharing your faith, but in them interpreting it as you do. Not very solid ground to stand on.
It made me behave the right way before i could understand why i should behave that way..
Personally, I rarely did the same wrong thing twice, and never thrice
Stuff like timeout, grounding, cutting TV, etc.
Maybe that's from constant mental abuse.
Punish =/= abuse
Hell, I have a cousin who's parents thought like that, and the little fucker knew too. Fucked up my room and said "I'm too little to know any better". Needless to say, his parents didn't believe me, but my parents backed me when I beat him anyways.
Little shit deserved it
Yes! I said it! I said kids deserve to be spanked when they do shit!
-talk to children
Anecdotes aside, does anyone else see the disconnect?
"You touch my fishtank again and I beat your ass"
He touched it after that. I beat his ass. He never touches it again
It should be called abuse, not punishment
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-science-says-and-doesn-t-about-spanking/
“In a meta-analysis of 26 studies, Larzelere and a colleague found that an approach they described as “conditional spanking” led to greater reductions in child defiance or anti-social behavior than 10 of 13 alternative discipline techniques, including reasoning, removal of privileges and time out (Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review, 2005). Larzelere defines conditional spanking as a disciplinary technique for 2- to 6-year-old children in which parents use two open-handed swats on the buttocks only after the child has defied milder discipline such as time out.”
They go on to state the inherent flaws of such studies including their own. If we look back through history....
Noone messes with my babies!