Yeah. Morons laugh at lots of things. “The state” (of Oregon) has an age of medical consent of 15, the age at which a patient is allowed to make their own decisions about medical treatments. It’s been that way since 1971. Oregon recently passed a law including certain gender issues as medical conditions under their public healthcare system. So 1. 15yo’s could have been getting such surgery since 1971, now there’s public funding of about $150k a year. Now- keep in mind that doesn’t mean that a 15yo CAN or will get such surgery. Currently 12 is about the upper limit at which “gender confusion” is thought to last. Meaning a professional wouldn’t likely consider a child that young capable of a decision. If you go at 15, you’ll still need psychological screening and possibly years of preop before you could undergo surgery- and if your parents don’t notice the long process of preop and effect she of preop hormones- they probably aren’t involved enough in your life to need a say in it anyway.
But at 15 years? At 15 I was playing with beyblades and hot wheels, why the hell do they need to choose to operate themselves so god damn young, they might regret their decision and you know there is no way back after that
Is sex transition surgery a cosmetic or medical surgery? I agree that fifteen seems like such a young age for a life changing surgery, but I have no experience with people who want it. My hope is that parents wouldn’t invalidate them but guide them to mark decisions they wouldn’t regret.
Awake_ash because if it's done before the end of puberty, they avoid a lot of hormonal changes, so it's easy. And you weren't concerned about your sex at 15 because you didn't need to.some people do
Purely cosmetic. Mutilation your genitals is not a step in the direction of mental health.
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· 6 years ago
Oh, but the DSM said it's no longer a mental illness.
But God forbid we use common sense and figure out
1. You can addicted to any hobby
2. Wanting to cut off your dick is in no way going to help you.
"Purely cosmetic. Mutilation your genitals is not a step in the direction of mental health." Ah, @guest...
1.) It's not cosmetic. It's a sometimes necessary procedure for that individual to have a sound mind.
2.) It's not the mutilation of genitals. You are using a too stern definition of mutilation which includes the removal of any body part. That does include genitals. It also includes getting a haircut and trimming your fingernails. As stated before, this is almost always a medically necessary procedure. This is also done by trained professionals that genuinely care about the wellbeing of the patient which cannot be said of FGM or MGM.
3.) This isn't a step towards sound mental health, I agree. It's a big ass leap.
SRS is perfectly acceptable procedure. I have a friend who just got a few snip snips and she is perfectly happy with her vajayjay. The vagina is exactly the same as a cis woman who simply didn't want to have kids anymore. And yes, it's fully fuctional: orgasm and all.
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· 6 years ago
Taking pills and and splitting your dick isn't making you a girl.
You are aware that some trans girls still experience erections, and have to clean and disinfect their genatalia(Yes, I'm aware women clean thier vaginas, but the body can register the genitals as a wound and begin to try to fix it.)
15 is a young age, I agree. But this is just a technicality. 15 is around the age where they would be able to consent to taking hormones which is to my knowledge a requirement before having Sexual Reassignment Surgery (SRS). HRT takes around two years for its full effects to finalize although the hormones will need to be taken permanently. Prior to taking HRT, there will be something known as a puberty blocker. It merely delays puberty until the time you stop taking the pill. It has no permanent effects, and puberty will begin as normal after you stop taking the pill. It's simply to allow the child to not have to deal with the horror of having the wrong puberty. HRT(Hormone Replacement Therapy) is just giving a person someone the correct gender's puberty.
If the child is indeed trans, they can start the proper treatment once they reach an age where they can make mature decisions usually around 15-18. If they are not, then they just stop taking the pills. Puberty will begin as normal.
It being easy doesn't make it the better option. Most people can't even be trusted to get a tattoo at that age (and when they do it's often shitty because of poor planning, bad artists, little money, poor design, or interests that change later on in life, and they regret it). Most people can't be trusted to moderate their alcohol intake before they're 21, and even then. Most can't be trusted to drive a vehicle without supervision. Or even have sex in the first place, which is why statutory rape is even a thing-- and child porn laws can include selfies teens take of themselves.
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Teenagres are 9 times out of 10 stupid and poor at making decisions. Having been one myself and known several I can vouch for that.
@serosenpai you don't seem to understand what SRS does. It's not splitting your dick. It's an actual pussy. It gets wet, it has orgasms, it looks like a normal pussy, and is a normal pussy. Trans women like this are the "pinnacle". These are the women you can date for years and never know they are trans. The only real evidence is them taking some pills (It doesn't have to be pills and can be an injection or something like a band-aid.)
That said, guest_ is likely correct in that they would require extensive counselling (they used to require in places that you live as the gender you want to be for several years as well iirc beforehand) before they will even be considered. '
But even with that in mind... I used to know a lot of teenagers with mental health problems. They received counselling and would still (for reasons of varying degrees and severity) on an almost nightly basis be completely convinced they wanted to kill themselves, and been fully prepared to do it. Without getting into gory details, in the end for the most part they grew up. And they grew out of it. Not entirely, they still had issues-- mental health issues and such for some of them would never go away. But almost every single one of them was glad they HADN'T killed themselves.
I'm not saying changing your gender is on par with killing yourself, I'm saying teens are emotional, unstable, unpredictable, and still developing in general. Any approach to any kind of major medical procedure that isn't vital to the person's survival-- especially when a guardian is not involved-- should be approached with extreme caution on all sides.
People seem to conflate being trans with the newest trend. Like getting a tattoo about candy crush. It's something that is very serious. It's been shown that the "Live like a woman before taking hormones" is just a shaming technique that people do to try to stop them from taking hormones. It isn't being depressed. If you are trans, then you will never "get over it". It's as real as missing a limb. You don't recover from being trans.
As for not being necessary... No. If you would call going to the hospital for internal bleeding necessary, then you should agree that getting HRT for being trans is too. A trans person isn't just feeling like a woman/man. Their brain actually is different than their body. Their brain is receiving the wrong hormones that causes the entire thing to "freak out". Simply having the proper hormones in their body can make them revert to having a healthy mental state. They are still trans and will always be trans. It's not a phase.
Did you seriously say that gender surgery is vital to survival? Because it most definitely is not. It may be vital to their happiness, but they can survive without it. That's the entire reason trans people even exist in the first place. If having the wrong genitals killed you, they'd all just die at birth.
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When I say surgery necessary for survival I mean basic necessity of continued existence.
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Your appendix ruptures? Without surgery, you die. Kidneys fail? Without surgery, you die. Anyeurism? Without surgery, you likely die.
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Genitals aren't the ones you feel you should have? I guess we have to kill you so that you can die and fit into the "trans surgery as necessary for survival" category. Otherwise you won't die. Assuming you do nothing to impede the process of your own survival, you will be able to live for several years.
You're literally addressing points I didn't make. I never said "don't take hormones" as part of living as the other gender. As far as I'm concerned, if you're that committed to changing gender then you probably damn well SHOULD start hormones because it's going to be a hell of a shock to the system if you don't. Which is the actual point of requesting people live as their preferred gender for a year. Maybe some people use it for shaming, but that's not the reason for doing it. It's because waking up one morning after a major surgery with an influx of major hormones that will change everything about the way your body functions, and suddenly having everyone treat you in entirely different manners (men and women do react differently to each other). It's a huge shock to the system
I didn't say SRS is vital. It can be for some, but there are also trans people who don't need it. Trans people who don't get treated eventually commit suicide due to the escalation of their brain giving an error signal that can only be fixed through treatment. A whole host of mental effect spew forth including one of the biggest killers in America: depression. Depression is as real a deadly injury as internal bleeding or cancer is. And the only way to cure this depression is through treatment. Not all trans people need SRS. Only 30% even get it if my memory is certain. But if a trans person goes untreated, they are almost certain to die. This treatment can go in many variants such as HRT, SRS, social transition, and any and all combinations. Being trans is slowly bleeding to death. If you don't get treatment, you're going to bleed out.
And like it or not, for a few gender confused, and a few of the insanely stupid, it WILL be a trend. Just like how some people have twisted the "metoo" movement into a trend. Kids and teens make poor decisions for themselves literally every day.
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Anyone who genuinely believes that it's an impossibility for a 15 year old to undergo a major life-changing surgery and then regret it later is the most naive person on the planet
You voiced an opinion. And you are very right in that what you said did not come even microscopically close to changing my mind. But since you addressed very little I actually said with very little that was actually relevant to what I said, that's hardly a surprise
Statically speaking less than 5% of people that are cleared to start transitioning are found to later regret it (at the last time I saw any credible numbers for it.)
Some good points are raised- and some off the mark ones. Key points to understand here are: The state of Oregon decided decades ago that a 15yo can make their own medical decisions. That’s not new- it’s been going on over 40 years in that state- and hasn’t caused any national scandals or debates, the end of civilization, anything. A parent can still file an injunction to stop non critical medical procedures if they don’t think the child is making a sound choice. The change is that public healthcare will now help pay for it- that’s the only change. So you’d have to be a 15yo on public healthcare, who was diagnosed with a qualifying case, AND there’s still substantial out of pocket so for your parents to not know you’d have to be a 15yo with thousands of dollars for additional treatments- AND just because a 15yo can make the choice- the medical practitioner still has a choice as well if they will allow treatment. Most gender reassignment requires you to live “as” the future gender 24/7..
.. for up to a year- to dress and conduct yourself as though you were the new gender. There are psychological screenings, and part of the process is that you and the practitioner speak to people in your life about your intentions. So your parents would almost undoubtably know, and have more than enough time to protest with you, as well as to legally try and block it. So at the youngest you would start at MAYBE 16yo, but that’s START. From there you have preop hormone treatments and other things, there are sessions with a psychologist, and more. So realistically even IF your specific case were strong enough to warrant attention at 15, you’d be closer to 17 or 18 when you were able to transition fully- AND that’s IF a team of doctors and surgeons all agreed after review, observation, and meeting you- that you were serious and mentally fit for the process. So there is almost a 0% chance of it happening. In 40 years that a 15yo could have a sex change (theoretically) in Oregon- I find....
... ZERO documented cases of ANY person of or around that age having had any sort of related surgical alteration except where birth deformity or accident required cosmetic surgery of the genitals. 40 years- 0 cases. So the issue to discuss has nothing to do with the salacious headline of “15yo’s can get sex changes!!!” It’s simply that a public health care plan has approved limited funding for gender reassignment for any person legally allowed who is deemed medically fit and valid for the process. Once again media misses the mark in order to generate targeted outrage through misleading headlines. You also realize that means a 15yo could get breast implants too right? Since 1971? How many surgeons do you think have put cosmetic implants in a 15yo for other than reconstructive reasons? It’s just blind panic.
No, no, no guest_ weren't you paying attention? The only reason someone can be made to live as the gender they identify as before receiving surgery is to shame them.
(Sarcasm self-test complete).
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I feel I need to clarify simply because I'm not sure if people are illiterate or deliberately ignoring what I actually said.
@bethorien (above wasn't aimed at you or guest_ BTW) - I understand most people who are willing to have their bodies sliced up to that degree to feel at home in their own skin won't regret it. But most isn't all. And I imagine most of the people in those statistics don't include 15 year olds.
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Even if we can guarantee 100% that the minor in question will be happy and never regret their choice, that doesn't mean they should be allowed to enter it without guidance or concern or caution OR without questioning the decisions they're making
For example A male-to-female, for example, may think it's an awesome idea at 15 to get size double D breasts. I certainly knew a l lot of girls when I was that age who would have killed for it. Given the chance, they would have gotten them, without any thought to the effects this could have on both their interactions with others, or their health in the long run. And given they formerly had no weight in that area to carry at ALL, and now have constant pressure there that appeared overnight, pulling at their skin and back, that's a pretty big strain to add.
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Maybe they'll be happy with it anyway. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't have been talked to about it beforehand. That someone shouldn't have been involved in the process. Maybe even talked them into sleeping on that decision for a couple months or such.
I bet you there are at least a few cases of pageant girls getting implants with parental permission at some point with 15 and younger kids because pageant parents are fucking insane (in response to "How many surgeons do you think have put cosmetic implants in a 15yo for other than reconstructive reasons? It’s just blind panic")
@xvarnah- unless we reached a technology level where gender reassignment was like Ranma or you just take a pill any time you want- no one should be allowed to change gender without guidance and help. That’s a relationship between a doctor and a patient. It’s independent of what the law allows a doctor to do and falls into the policies and ethics of medicine. No ethical doctor is going to allow a 15yo to walk in to a hospital without telling anyone in their life- say “I want to change gender..” and then walk out swapped. It’s a process. A long process as described above- even for adults- because it is a serious life altering decision that has unforeseeable consequences and can’t be effectively reversed if carried to its farthest end. There is a high risk of suicide in post operative sex reassignment among other things. So it isn’t a light decision- but again- there are plenty of safeguards in place to prevent such a case. Doctors in Oregon aren’t just chopping genitals up on a whim.
Bearing in mind I was never claiming a lot of doctors would go in half-cocked to perform an operation like this
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The key in your comment is "ethical doctors." Not everyone operates ethically. If they did, once again, we wouldn't need statutory rape laws, or child porn laws, or selling alcohol to minors, or half a dozen other things. There are plenty of people who would gladly take advantage of a 15 year old. Or WOULDN'T advise them properly. And at the end of the day doctors aren't parents. I've known plenty of people who have had terrible doctors and had horrendous fallout because the doctors couldn't be bothered advising them properly (yes, in America as well as Canada). And even if they ARE, there's still a decent risk that any number of things can go wrong. That's the entire reason the law gets involved in situations like this to begin with.
@bethorien- I agree and upvote. Apologies. Let me be more specific- I meant that in the state of Oregon, wherebit has been legal in theory for 40+ years- surgeons don’t with any regularity (0 cases I could find,) provide 15 year old girls who walk in and request them and have nonprent or guardian- breast implants. It’s not a long list of 15yo’s who could pay for implants to begin with- and few if any reputable surgeons would do such a thing. I’m sure crazy parent folks and the like do it- and they may well have “friendly” surgeons in the industry who do such things- but as it pertains to the issue, that it statistically works out to nill. Also- if they have crazy parent parents then the issue of a 15yo giving consent without a parent is moot- a 15yo’s parent could also consent to a sex change. Crazy parents are crazy parents. That becomes about child abuse.
Perhaps spiderwoman should read your comment about post-op suicide rates. I know she doesn't have a lot of interest in any opinion that isn't her own, but still.
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I wasn't really aware of people committing suicide after surgery that much, but that seems like another valid reason to be concerned.
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And I did read your comment about the process-- and I mentioned it myself. But since I have no idea if that is or will always be mandatory for people before going into surgery, I'm more addressing a scenario where a 15 year old could walk into a hospital and say "change my gender" and have a doctor perform the surgery within a day or week or month.
@xvarnah- yes. You are right. That is why laws and ethics committed exist for doctors. But the logic you begin to pursue is a dangerous road. Not all doctors are ethical. Some would use their prescription pads to sell or abuse drugs. Controls are in place- but it can happen. The effective answer of course would be to take away a doctors ability to prescribe chemicals. How can we be sure that the doctor who prescribed those pain killers for your teen was of sound ethics and judgment and not your kids plug? You see, we can make every effort to vet doctors, to supervise and put law and policy in place to prevent abuse- however in the end, to be effective a doctor needs to be able to use any and all medically approved tools which current science says can improve a quality of life case by case. We have to leave room for a doctors judgment until we can make machines that doctor better than humans. A decision to transition a person isn’t made by one doctor either- it’s made by many separate..
... doctors working together. So you must have a whole team of doctors who all agree based on professional experience and knowledge that the best course for a patient is transition. If they are wrong- and the one asking is wrong- that’s a lot of the most informed people on that specific case being wrong. It can happen sure, but what we do when we start to erode a doctors ability to apply treatment that has been scientifically accepted is that we harm medicine and through that society. Doctors can be corrupt, they can be wrong, but by the numbers they are still the subject matter experts and the most qualified to have a say right or wrong. You’ll always be able to bribe or somewhere in the world find doctors who will do the illegal, untested, unethical- but we can’t assume that all doctors are that or else why even have doctors? Lock them in jail when they graduate end school and make them provide care from a cell at that point.
If a doctor gender swaps a 15yo as a one person team and without any parental consent or psychiatric clearance- they WILL answer to a medical board if it is done legally. If a doctor gender swaps a 15yo at ALL there WILL be board hearings and legal consultations and their office WILL go to every length to make sure they have completely vetted the patient and cleared all pertinent steps for a successful transition. If they do it legally. If some back yard or moonlighting doctor, or some Hollywood wonder bunny who will graft animal parts to you for the right amount does it “off the books”.... they’ll very likely get busted if there are any complaints or friction- and even if they don’t it wasn’t done legally and within the confines of established medical practice. If they have a license it’s gone, and you can’t make something “super illegal” so it was already a breach and that’s that.
It’s noy exactly “made up,” but it’s sort of taking two unrelated facts and presenting them as one in an unlikely- near impossible scenario. The state is Oregon. In Oregon the legal age of medical consent is 15. That means that a doctor or medical professional can treat anyone 15+ or 15+ can approve or deny procedures for their care. That has been law in Oregon since 1971. There was a new law passed in Oregon which allocates a small amount of public funding to cover gender reassignment and related treatments under their public health plan. So certain people like Fox need have combined the two to say that Oregon passed a law saying 15yo’s can have sex changes without parental consent.
But God forbid we use common sense and figure out
1. You can addicted to any hobby
2. Wanting to cut off your dick is in no way going to help you.
1.) It's not cosmetic. It's a sometimes necessary procedure for that individual to have a sound mind.
2.) It's not the mutilation of genitals. You are using a too stern definition of mutilation which includes the removal of any body part. That does include genitals. It also includes getting a haircut and trimming your fingernails. As stated before, this is almost always a medically necessary procedure. This is also done by trained professionals that genuinely care about the wellbeing of the patient which cannot be said of FGM or MGM.
3.) This isn't a step towards sound mental health, I agree. It's a big ass leap.
SRS is perfectly acceptable procedure. I have a friend who just got a few snip snips and she is perfectly happy with her vajayjay. The vagina is exactly the same as a cis woman who simply didn't want to have kids anymore. And yes, it's fully fuctional: orgasm and all.
You are aware that some trans girls still experience erections, and have to clean and disinfect their genatalia(Yes, I'm aware women clean thier vaginas, but the body can register the genitals as a wound and begin to try to fix it.)
If the child is indeed trans, they can start the proper treatment once they reach an age where they can make mature decisions usually around 15-18. If they are not, then they just stop taking the pills. Puberty will begin as normal.
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Teenagres are 9 times out of 10 stupid and poor at making decisions. Having been one myself and known several I can vouch for that.
But even with that in mind... I used to know a lot of teenagers with mental health problems. They received counselling and would still (for reasons of varying degrees and severity) on an almost nightly basis be completely convinced they wanted to kill themselves, and been fully prepared to do it. Without getting into gory details, in the end for the most part they grew up. And they grew out of it. Not entirely, they still had issues-- mental health issues and such for some of them would never go away. But almost every single one of them was glad they HADN'T killed themselves.
As for not being necessary... No. If you would call going to the hospital for internal bleeding necessary, then you should agree that getting HRT for being trans is too. A trans person isn't just feeling like a woman/man. Their brain actually is different than their body. Their brain is receiving the wrong hormones that causes the entire thing to "freak out". Simply having the proper hormones in their body can make them revert to having a healthy mental state. They are still trans and will always be trans. It's not a phase.
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When I say surgery necessary for survival I mean basic necessity of continued existence.
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Your appendix ruptures? Without surgery, you die. Kidneys fail? Without surgery, you die. Anyeurism? Without surgery, you likely die.
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Genitals aren't the ones you feel you should have? I guess we have to kill you so that you can die and fit into the "trans surgery as necessary for survival" category. Otherwise you won't die. Assuming you do nothing to impede the process of your own survival, you will be able to live for several years.
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Anyone who genuinely believes that it's an impossibility for a 15 year old to undergo a major life-changing surgery and then regret it later is the most naive person on the planet
(Sarcasm self-test complete).
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I feel I need to clarify simply because I'm not sure if people are illiterate or deliberately ignoring what I actually said.
@bethorien (above wasn't aimed at you or guest_ BTW) - I understand most people who are willing to have their bodies sliced up to that degree to feel at home in their own skin won't regret it. But most isn't all. And I imagine most of the people in those statistics don't include 15 year olds.
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Even if we can guarantee 100% that the minor in question will be happy and never regret their choice, that doesn't mean they should be allowed to enter it without guidance or concern or caution OR without questioning the decisions they're making
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Maybe they'll be happy with it anyway. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't have been talked to about it beforehand. That someone shouldn't have been involved in the process. Maybe even talked them into sleeping on that decision for a couple months or such.
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The key in your comment is "ethical doctors." Not everyone operates ethically. If they did, once again, we wouldn't need statutory rape laws, or child porn laws, or selling alcohol to minors, or half a dozen other things. There are plenty of people who would gladly take advantage of a 15 year old. Or WOULDN'T advise them properly. And at the end of the day doctors aren't parents. I've known plenty of people who have had terrible doctors and had horrendous fallout because the doctors couldn't be bothered advising them properly (yes, in America as well as Canada). And even if they ARE, there's still a decent risk that any number of things can go wrong. That's the entire reason the law gets involved in situations like this to begin with.
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I wasn't really aware of people committing suicide after surgery that much, but that seems like another valid reason to be concerned.
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And I did read your comment about the process-- and I mentioned it myself. But since I have no idea if that is or will always be mandatory for people before going into surgery, I'm more addressing a scenario where a 15 year old could walk into a hospital and say "change my gender" and have a doctor perform the surgery within a day or week or month.