There you go. They're depending on each other. Now read some of what Mr Ford said about his employees salaries and his own wealth, this MF had it right.
A healthy company is a tree. Pyramids are just big rock piles full of dead guys and money no one can use. A tree needs leaves to photosynthesize, a trunk to hold it up and transport nutrients, and roots to keep it in place and draw nutrients from the soil. That said- there’s a stress that is unique to knowing hundreds or many thousands are depending on you. That a bad day isn’t shipping a waffle iron instead of a Wok, or putting pickles on a plain burger, it’s vaporozing millions of dollars or thousands of jobs because you messed up. I’m a fan of professionalism. I think that every burger should be treated as a $300million dollar business deal. That just as a CEO is held to standards of performance- so to should every worker. That people should put their all into whatever their job is, and that they should be paid as a professional of their caliber. At some point though- we just have to admit- it’s a lot easier to find 5000 people with the skills to flip a burger right.
I understand where you're heading to, but still imho the differences are way too big and have left to an enourmous gap between wealthy and poor people.
I am a Manager myself and thus I know that responsability and professionalism have to be compensated accordingly. But even if your position (be it CEO, Manager, Supervisor) covers 2000 positions "below" you, you shouldn't be earning 2000 times as much. Or even 1000 times. That's just a source of social TNT and it can be witnessed everywhere. Managers salaries have developped in a rate that's not even close to be compareable to those who have to be considered as the backbone of both enterprises and society.
Solidarity will be the weapon of successful societies in the future. Social freedom and more equality in terms of taxes, education and the possibility of participation of everyone are the key to productivity and a peaceful life.
bitch??? no CEO has ever given me my fucking McFish fuck you mean "value"
Tom behind the register has more value to me than whatever fuckin gross ass CEO runs these shitty fast food chains
if there were no ceos you wouldn't be getting a McFish at all. You'd be eating the same food you've eaten your entire life from the same 4 locally owned places while working for 3 dollars an hour your entire life at the same place your parents worked at for their entire lives with basically no amenities except for stuff that could be locally sourced or stuff that you could pay a years wages for.
The issue is about balance. Yeah, the CEO makes more because he is responsible for more, but he could shave an almost imperceptible amount of his salary and it would profoundly impact the pay of employees.
Also, just want to point out, in half a day, he is earning more than the employee will earn in an entire year.
This is patently untrue. At $9000/hr the CEO makes around $18mil/yr. McDonalds employs almost 500,000 workers. If the CEO gave up his entire salary and redirected it to the workers it would amount to about an $0.02/hr increase in their pay.
CEOs make what they make because there is a very very small number of people who can do what they do competently. If you were handed the CEO position at McDonalds you would fail at it terribly.
There is truth in these words. I do think that people should be paid more- but not for nothing. There are standards of professionalism which one should meet. If you want to be paid more to work at Wally mart- I would expect a dedicated employee. Always presentable, a good communicator who knows what brands we carry, why, where they are in the store, when inventory comes in, an extensive knowledge of the product lines we carry and their uses and advantages, as well as the competitors. Punctual, reliable, a good attitude and good decision making. I spend a lot of time reading. About shit I don’t care about. Because I’m an an industry and a field where I am expected to know these things and be up to date on new developments. Part of my salary is justified on what I know. So that’s what I expect. You can’t just ask for more and give the same amount. For $15-20 an hour I expect a retail professional who treats their job as seriously as an EMT treats a patient on the slab.
I’m all for income raises for lower level jobs, and equalization of income across positions- but under the caveat that if you want to be treated like and paid like a professional, you need to act like a professional. I think that anyone that wants to work should be rewarded for that, and part of that work is off the clock, because CEO’s and VP’s and junior execs don’t get to clock out. Any time any day of the year- you are on call if things get intense. When you aren’t at work you still need to think about work, stay ahead of the curve, strategize and organize what you plan to do tomorrow or 6 months from now, and be aware of what’s going on in the world that could impact your job, company, and industry. That money has a cost and those costs are expectations. You are expected to be invested in that company as though it was your own. That’s the price tag I’d put on raising worker wages. I’d expect professionals and not just clock punchers looking for a pay check.
@guest_ It sounds like you want to see "professionalism" to know if they deserve a wage increase, but how can you expect people to respect their jobs when the jobs don't treat them with respect? It can't just be a wage increase, the entire attitude towards these workers must change. Managers and higher-ups must treat them with dignity, give them enough hours so they don't have to work a second job, and stop acting as though every worker below such-and-such level is replaceable. For people to act professional they need to be treated as such.
youve got the burden backwards. The way a company works you have to earn respect. You don't just get it from showing up to an entry level job. People have a right to respect as a person. They don't have, however, a right to respect as a professional until they can prove that they deserve it.
It's been shown that people work harder when they're shown encouragement and assistance instead of strict rules. Why are we punishing people for taking entry level jobs? What's the motivation to act professional if they are treated like animals, not professionals? Why should they have to earn respect when they're already doing a job that's harder than it looks and I wouldn't want to do?
They have to earn respect because a very large portion of people that get entry level jobs don't give a shit and don't treat it like it matters at all. When you deal with people that are worthless fuck ups who think they should get paid for nothing and do the bare minimum for their job as almost a default for that level of worker you assume the norm rather than the exception when dolling out professional respect.
The point of an entry level position is for the employee to prove themselves. I started at the bottom and worked my way up over many years. I had any number of managers and coworkers whose attitudes I had to work through. It was up to me to do so not the company’s responsibility to make them be nice to me. Part of the professionalism that @_guest refers to is the ability to maintain a level of enthusiasm, competence, and thoroughness even when the task is difficult or menial.
But nothing about the job encourages someone to do more than the bare minimum to "prove" themselves. These jobs tend to provide little pay and few opportunities to advance and earn more. So why would someone spend their maximum effort if there's no way for it to pay off, even in the form of encouraging words from a supervisor. I think that if there were higher wages and more respect given to these positions, even the "worthless fuck ups" would increase their output.
@unicycle- I’m with bethorien and scatmandigo by and large on this. It’s part of being a grown up. I can HATE my job and they can treat me like shit. I’m worth more. I’ll be professional and hard working the whole time while I look for another job and quit. If they treat me bad enough- I’ll give my 2+ weeks and be on my way and land where I land. Because those people I worked with may be somewhere else someday and I want them to say I was a professional- not a jerk off. Because I have standards for myself independent of what my employer expects. I came to work, and I will do just that. Companies SHOULD respect their employees, it should be a relationship of mutual trust and respect. We can’t control how others behave But we can control how we behave, so we should act professional and value ourselves if we want others to value us.
@unicycle- sorry for the double post. I was writing that last one slowly and sent it after your last post. It’s simple- because you value you. Because you took the job. Because there are customers and other employees who rely on you to support them, and if you aren’t being your best, they suffer in addition to your employer.l- and unlike your employer they didn’t do anything wrong to you. Because growth is a process and attitude is a state of being. Because whatever you do, the fact that you are using some of the precious time you have on earth to do it means you should do it well or do something else. Those are all reasons why. You might not have advancement opportunities at that job- but you may still advance other places, and it isn’t a light switch that flips from “F this” to “team player,” and if it is- it can flip back easy. I don’t want a worker who when they feel dissatisfied or stagnant in their career they give 1% effort. More over that attitude rarely will lead to success.
I have research assistants who work under me. They aren't required to have any qualifications and they don't make much money. If I gave them minimal instructions for their jobs and threatened to fire them for being 5 minutes late, they'd do the bare minimum to not be fired. But a heartfelt thank you and some understanding when they're late or sick makes them happy to come in and they work hard to help me. You can't run every business exactly like that, but it HAS to be a two-way street for companies. Nobody has a passion for fast food - it's not their dream career. If you treat people like they're worthless and lazy, they'll start to act that way. If we treat it like it's a dead-end job, so will the workers. Work isn't (and shouldn't be) the most important thing in these peoples' lives and companies have to stop acting like people are able to give 110% every day.
I would largely agree. It makes sense morally and financially. It isn’t viable to offer high pay to everyone, and it isn’t viable or effective to just keep giving people raises either. Recognition, respect, a feeling of mutual trust and investment, these things can motivate people and effectively used can be as good or better at creating a solid, hard working, and happy team. When a person has respect and is respected by a manager and has a good working relationship, that person sees a face to their work. They may never meet the CEO but they know that Jane is happy when they do well, that Kevin has to do extra work when they mess up. They feel like a part of something and are more likely to invest- and workers who feel valued and respected not only tend to be happier and more productive but they tend to be more loyal. So yes. All that IS true. But the fact that is true also doesn’t mean anything else said isn’t. It is much easier to do your job, do it well, and naturally have or...
... conjure a good attitude when you are treated well. However- the way feel may be effected by external factors like how you are treated. The way you behave may be effected by the way you feel- but you are the asshole in charge of your own destiny. The person most able to control the way you act out of anyone is you. Not your job, not your spouse or your mom. You. You decide every day who you want to be. You don’t get to decide who other people are. The modern business model is grotesque. It’s a meat grinder and everyone is expendable. There’s almost always more people to take your job in wait regardless of what your job is. There’s always someone who doesn’t know better or is desperate who will take it, and modern software and tools make it a concept I call “interchangeable assholes.” The goal of automation is to turn any job into something that any person with a pulse can learn in 5 minutes. The little benefits and extra touches a “great” worker does that a passable one doesn’t-
They don’t contribute in a quantifiable way to bottom line earnings, or the costs don’t offset the gains in thebyes of management working a velocity profit model. In a perfect world- companies would all treat workers with respect. The company is in the position of power. You have less people offering you money for work than they have asking for money. Morally they shouldn’t abuse that leverage but many do. The way for the worker to reclaim power is through making themselves valuable. Labor- humans are comoditized in the “meat grinder” of modern industry. You have a value in dollars and a replacement cost on your head. If consumers value service and professionalism, then companies are forced to respond to that demand to be profitable. We got here because consumers didn’t value service over savings, and workers didn’t value their labor. Corporate greed played its part and is of course the real cause- but that can’t readiky be stopped in an under regulated corporate society...
... so if we know by default corporations will act to ensure maximum profit in a market, the market must dictate corporate behave through its own. If every fast food worker walks out today- it does no good if just as many people are willing to prostitute themselves tomorrow for the money. That’s the rub. That’s why it’s on the individual to be a professional. Because you can’t control how a company behaves without upending the political and economic make up of the modern world, and you can’t stop all the people willing to do more for less than you from killing your bargaining position on labor. If you stand on “well you need me to work...” no. I need anybody to work, but you need this check for food. So I’ve got the juice there. Your need is greater and your options are more limited. So the worker must change the game. The worker must be a part of social change- a change in people’s perceptions and habits that will side step the need to rio apart the establishment by motivating it to..
.. change itself. That change is to bring back the professional. To have people go to XYZ store because their sales force has the best and most knowledgeable staff, because people feel confident dealing with them. True story. I took a Christmas job at a chain “big box” multi retailer many years ago. It was adult day care. They had coloring contests, nap areas, the registers didn’t just calculate change for you- they showed you graphics of what the change looked like- bills, dimes, pennies- so a monkey could run this register. Everything was very rigid and paint by numbers, and they preferred employees not leave the premises on breaks as they worried you wouldn’t get back for your shift. I worked with people who were adults and turned down paying shifts all the time because they wanted to sit at home. They worked 20 hours or less a week and complained about their checks but were offered hours and more money and would say no- to do.. nothing....
I couldn’t blame management for their system because I saw my coworkers and how they acted and how they literally turned their brains off on the clock- and you’d need rules like that when you can’t trust an employee to not lose their mittens if they weren’t pinned to their jacket. It took almost no effort to become the favorite worker. I just showed up on time, kept a good attitude, did my simple job well, and they offered me more, and I did more. They were very upset when I left but my regular job conflicted my hours so I had to go. Some people may not be as capable as others, most can be if they try. But I still treated that job like I was at work no matter how menial it could be because I signed a deal that said I would work it and they’d pay me $X. That was our deal. They kept their end. We didn’t make a deal that we’d like each other or anything else. Work for money- that was the deal and that’s what I got.
Now a lot of people don’t have much choice. They need a job. They need to pay bills. Some jobs and some industries prey on these people. It’s unjust. But- it’s still your choice. You can handle it by slacking off, by floating day to day and collecting checks- or you can be active. You can decide that you are going to be the best even if they aren’t. You can learn, you can grow. Growth is a process. We don’t wake up one day with the skills and mindset to succeed. We slowly develop it. So even if the job is dead end and the company is garbage- you learn what you can, you develop your professional skills and your work ethic and learn anything you can that will help you to go somewhere better. You can’t wait to be rescued by a law or a miracle job offer. If you aren’t keeping your knife sharp and oiled it’s rusting. So even if that miracle comes along you are so dull and rusty from your time spent moping and scraping the bottom that you don’t have the outlook and edge to get ahead...
.... if you let life grind you down, if you say “well if this is how shitty things are I’ll just match that level..” you aren’t elevating yourself. If you decide to just let it crush you then you are crushed. That is another reason professionalism is important. At the end of the day- most of us don’t do anything so noble or so critical as we might convince ourselves. It’s true that the modern world relies on us all doing what we do whatever it is- but the world in general keeps spinning either way. So in the abstract wether it is work or life we can get nihilistic about things if we choose- but we give ourselves purpose. That’s the thing no one can give or take from you. If you dedicate yourself to your work- it doesn’t have to be your passion. Who’s passion is spreadsheets full of data? A few maybe sure- most no. Not everyone will follow their passion. I do my job because I had the qualifications and it pays me more than my last job. Do I love it? I like that it could suck worse...
... and pay worse, but it doesn’t. I don’t like that it could suck less and pay more. Cry for me if you wish, this is not my dream, and I know that my job is a manufactured necessity of a modern consumer economy- and out of that context it has no greater purpose or meaning. But I can still take pride in it. People post Mario speed runs or Minecraft creations or record fidget spins or whatever. What’s the point? It doesn’t matter. They take pride in it and set out to do something they thought was amazing. So that’s all that’s required. You don’t have to be passionate about burgers- although it helps. You have to take pride in whatever it is you do. Only you can ascribe meaning to an arguable undefined existence....
.... part of it is society as well. We’ve told people NOT to be passionate about flipping burgers. Not to be proud of working as a cashier. Why? If we take money out of the equation and we are all paid the same- what is so shameful about flipping burgers? Nothing. Most people enjoy a good burger. You think we would be thankful to someone who grilled them well and efficiently. That’s part of the dupe you see. By making these tasks so simple, by taking the service out of customer service and replacing it with dull eyed prisoners of pay- we created morlocks- pariahs. We took something we should be grateful for and devalued it to the point that we devalue the humans who do it. And how do you gain value as a human being? The way to start is always to start valuing yourself. So the answer isn’t that flipping burgers should be a necessity on a road to something else or to get by- it should be a career. Something people are proud of. A skilled trade. That’s where money is- when it is the...
... case or illusion that “anyone” can do your job- you aren’t valued. It’s seen as a simple mechanical task that if it were cheap enough to do so- we’d use a machine for. That’s the easy test. If the technology exists to make a machine that can do your job- that’s bad. If that technology is somewhat feasible- that’s really bad. If the technology is cheap and reliable enough that it could outperform you- you are not in a good place most likely. But machines don’t take pride. The more you do- the more you know- the more you can bring humanity to a task- the more you can be valuable. Each extra thing you do makes the machine to replace you more expensive or less feasible. When you reach a level where only a human can do what you do- you are doing pretty well.
Corporations killed professionals out of self interest. They were profit motivated to devalue workers because by shorting the labor force they strengthened their bargaining power. To reclaim that power workers must become professionals again. We have to slip the shackles of work that doesn’t require thinking and force ourselves to think and do so that we have an inherent value beyond “usually shows up, can follow basic instructions to work a machine, is cheaper than a fully automated machine.” When that’s part of your resume- “cheaper than a fully automated machine...” you can’t expect much. So yes. I’m all for better treatment of workers. Yes, I’m up for PROPORTIONAL wage adjustments across all pay grades so that even people incable of doing more can at least survive, I’m a firm believer a company should respect its workers, and I agree respect is a 2 way street. But your attitude is on you, not them. Sign a paper, cash a check, do the job. Or negotiate in the interview...
.. tell the manager “for that much pay I’ll give you 30% effort...” and reach a compromise between wages and effort. Otherwise they are expecting 100% and many make that very clear so it isn’t strictly implied. Either way it is again- on you because you’ll know you aren’t giving your all and how you reconcile that is about YOUR character and not THEIRS. As for “minimum wage hikes-“ that’s nonsense and the larger issues we won’t get into aren’t the pay but a damaged real estate system and a broken credit system which creates indentured servants and funnels money from the poor to the wealthy. Those need fixed not some half ass work around bandaid that undoes itself by its nature.
So congrats on writing (and making me read) a 2,218 word response. I honestly don't know how to reply since it was less of a coherent argument and more of a loose bundle of facts, anecdotes, unrelated assertions, and deeper philosophy. I agree with a lot that you said, and also disagree with a lot. All I can say is that it's clear we don't agree on the nature of human behavior or the best way to help minimum wage workers.
excuse me but what the fuck is a 'value'? other than some generic capitalistic term used by the people who try to justify how a CEO is entitled to a 1000x a worker's pay i mean.
Value is an individuals worth to a company. Let’s say you have a worker in accounting who has a degree or certificate outside accounting in a business field. They can do certain things no other accountant can because of it. They have a higher value than the other accountants (all else being equal.) Now let’s say that you have a person who delivers mail. Their job requires they can.. read, and move around a building. Those requirements can be met by a good deal of earths population. If you fire them tomorrow you can have a new person in their spot, trained, doing their job as functionally effectively in no time. They are easily replaced. The person who built your entire system and business strategy has skills and knowledge that can’t be easily replaced. Just “catching up” the replacement on how to do the job and all the current projects and how to use systems, who is who in the company, what your organization was doing... etc. is a huge task. That’s “value.”
Who am I kidding. I’m poor too.
I am a Manager myself and thus I know that responsability and professionalism have to be compensated accordingly. But even if your position (be it CEO, Manager, Supervisor) covers 2000 positions "below" you, you shouldn't be earning 2000 times as much. Or even 1000 times. That's just a source of social TNT and it can be witnessed everywhere. Managers salaries have developped in a rate that's not even close to be compareable to those who have to be considered as the backbone of both enterprises and society.
Solidarity will be the weapon of successful societies in the future. Social freedom and more equality in terms of taxes, education and the possibility of participation of everyone are the key to productivity and a peaceful life.
Tom behind the register has more value to me than whatever fuckin gross ass CEO runs these shitty fast food chains
Also, just want to point out, in half a day, he is earning more than the employee will earn in an entire year.
CEOs make what they make because there is a very very small number of people who can do what they do competently. If you were handed the CEO position at McDonalds you would fail at it terribly.