I don’t think “hatred” is the right word necessarily... and I don’t think that statistic is accurate- or even actually able to be based on solid data beyond the notoriously flawed self survey or observing males propositioned by a trans female (of which many variables other than being any one thing factor into human responses to romantic/sexual advances.)
The key question lies in wether that same male WOULD date a chromosomal female if she had been born with a penis. If they would- there is a solid case to discrimination or bias. If they would NOT- then the issue is less likely the woman is trans- and more likely that she has a penis.
Eg: every time one of the ducks from the pond tries to date Bunny Fluff Fluff- Bunny turns them down. The ducks assume that Fluff Fluff hates ducks. But- if we observe the bunny- the bunny also turns down the storks and the swans. Ok. Bunny hates birds? But bunny turns down bats too... so it turns out- the bunny finds wings a turn off. There is selection discrimination- the same as it is discrimination for a gay man to only date men, or a straight woman who refuses to date a man who beats women. That IS a TYPE of discrimination- but it is not “hate” based as much as it is preference based.
I'm not attracted to masculine features, so if these were present on a woman born a woman they'd still be enough to garner a no. So if you've had a sex change and still resemble a man, it's just going to be a no.
Now- where things can get nuanced is in how that man SEES that trans woman. If he SAYS he accepts trans women as women... but won’t date a trans woman- even one he finds attractive and interesting- there’s a possibility there that he doesn’t TRULY believe that trans women are women even if he really thinks he does. So he may not actually see trans women as women equally. But I suppose....
Not all trans women see themselves as “women” either do they? Many people are proud to be trans- or believe in a “trans community” or “trans culture.” Which- by the very nature of a special culture would mean that specific person is literally setting themselves as “different” than a chromosomal female right? But then... does that mean THEY hate trans people because they acknowledge that vein trans has differences from being a chromosomal member of that sex. I’m sure we am certainly agree that trans women deal with certain challenges in life that chromosomal females don’t right?
So if we a knowledge that there is SOME distinction between a chromosomal female and a trans woman- than it would stand to reason that difference may be a factor in selection processes for mating? Of course- and again- perhaps that is foolish depending upon circumstances.
So we could certainly say that a man who was attracted to a trans woman without knowing she was trans, and then upon discovering she was trans, no longer wished to pursue relations- and if that man is not specifically interested in having children or the option to do so with this particular person- AND said man has not previously had relations with a trans woman or experience to know what that relationship may be like- then he is almost certainly just adhering to traditional gender roles and ideas of sexuality as a concrete state as opposed to a fluid spectrum.
@nicengelman- that’s why that is a criteria. If one were shown a book or “tinder” type app full of potential dates- some are chromosomal female and others trans female- and you had no outward indication which was which- anyone you “swiped” yes to would be someone you found attractive- wether you just looked at pictures- or read some sort of blurb as well. At the least, just by pictures- you’d find anyone you said yes to- physically, sexually, attractive.
Day time TV shows used to do a format for filler like that. They’d bring on trans and non trans as well as “drag” ladies- and have you guess who was trans. The audience as well as those at home (myself included) were often surprised to find we were wrong as to who was or wasn’t often enough.
Simply put- not every trans person looks like The main cast of “To Wong Fu...” and many trans women “pass” well enough to get by close up scrutiny. So certainly “masculine” features can be a turn off- I have never cared for women with wide set or pronounced jaws for instance- but... if you saw a trans woman you weren’t aware was trans- who fit what your idea of feminine beauty is... that’s where the questions start.
Mmmm..... it becomes very nuanced when we discuss fetishism of inherent biology. Differing opinions exist in professionals- but common views are that such fetishization of human aspects is, at the least, reductionist of any individual in question. Several leading theories hold it to actually be a vestige of the mind of the oppressor- such as “colonialist thinking,” while others consider it a form of stereotyping- considering that psychologically one has subconsciously decided that this archetype is “inferior” and thus an object of conquest and not a human- or “superior” to others- although sometimes the fetus itself is a desire to “conquer” the “better.”
What IS generally agreed upon however, and many humans feel this way (for example many women of various groups- let’s use “Asian”- a common “fetish”, find it off putting or insulting and do not generally seek to desire a person who has a fetishized for Asian women or as it is often known informally- “yellow fever.” Most people want to valued as complete human beings and not simply be held on a pedestal for some inherent feature- although some people have power or worship fantasies that can make it irrelevant in cases of pure sexual gratification WHY they are being worshipped- simply that they are is enough.
But there is a distinction there- and a tough one to make. Speaking of race for example- the technical term for a fetishizing a specific race is “sexual racism” and there is great debate over wether sexual racism is itself inherently racist- or if it is simply a form of sexual preference. Wether it is or is not- may dance upon the heads of pins as far as certain factors and specifics to each individual case with each individual person. Likewise- to fetishize the biological female is to look past the value of the biological female as a person, and discount the value of all people who are not biological females.
Traditionally- outside of clinical definitions where a “fetish” was the REQUIREMENT of a given object to achieve climax or gratification and is a sexual disorder- a fetish is applied to an object or body part. To fetishize an aspect of a person- and by extension that person- we must in some way objectify or diminish them.
I suppose we must ask- are we kink shaming necrophiliacs by making their sexual preferences illegal- when in point of fact these preferences can be said to do no tangible harm to any person? The example shows us that when it comes to sexual preference- there are certain places where, even if no real and definitive harm has been done- we consider them socially unacceptable due simply to feeling they are repugnant or not aspirational to society.
I mean, my take on it isn't nuanced at all.
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Not wanting to date a person's because you're not attracted to them is not fear or phobia or bigotry. That's simply creating enemies where you have none, and who the fuck does anyone think they are trying to tell anyone who they should and should not want to fuck (children, animals, etc being the exception).
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I don't consider heterosexuality a fetish, but it makes for a good joke, and if it shuts even one idiot up to view it that way then by all means.
I figured you were being humorous, I just also figured it was worth mentioning to those who may read it more literally, that the fetishize gambit has its inherent flaws- the inverse implication of course being that those who would choose to be with a transgender partner are in it for the fetish- which may or may not be true- but I’d imagine most trans folks would prefer a partner who didn’t just value them as a fetish object.
But by and large I agree with the sentiment we should just let people love people. I mean- there’s obviously nothing odd or wrong with dating outside a persons race, or dating a bi-sexual, but by the same token- we shouldn’t make those relationships an “accessory” and say that if you ARENT dating a pansexual gender fluid different races mixed ethnicity, trans vegan- that you are obviously a Nazi. It shouldn’t be “fashionable” or seen as “better” to date one type of person. That too diminishes the person- to say “oh. Look at Rick. He’s so cool. Dating an Apache helicopter. Not like John and his Herero normative bullshit...”
But there are the nuances. Say a person only dates in their race because those people “understand their culture”well... if you meet someone from outside your race who was raised for example- fostered in an environment of your culture- and you otherwise find them attractive- but you refuse to date them as they aren’t your race... the reasoning about “culture” is no longer valid is it? So wether no dating them is based in prejudice will depend upon the nuance of wether you have some legitimate reason beyond their race to not be attracted to them right?
And likewise- we can say people of a certain group often have similarities- traits that are common or more common in that group. Chinese people USUALLY have dark brown or black natural hair, that is USUALLY straight. Smaller frames are common as is fair skin color and certain facial features and shapes, as well as a reduced level of perspiration and body hair.
If a person likes these traits- they may find themselves often dating Chinese people. HOWEVER- there is a clear distinction there- a distinction between dating people with traits one is attracted to, and dating people because of a race. The distinction can be found in the fact that not ALL Chinese people will have all or many of those traits- and just because a person ISNT Chinese- doesn’t mean they can’t or won’t have those traits.
So we could say this person dates people of a very specific type, whom they are more likely to find in one group than another. That’s preference. Saying they only date Chinese- could certainly be racial bias.
Now- in a free society- one is free in their personal dealings to be bias, racist, to discriminate as they see fit. No division of the government should be able to enforce affirmative action in our personal interactions. But.... well... that means that others are also free to discriminate against those they see as bigots right?
I’m 90% sure the original wasn’t made by a trans person. Most trans people know and understand about cis people not wanting to have sex with them. What trans people are asking is that if a cis guy dates a trans woman, he be considered straight, a vice versa.
Transwomen should date transmen...
Was that hard enough?
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Not wanting to date a person's because you're not attracted to them is not fear or phobia or bigotry. That's simply creating enemies where you have none, and who the fuck does anyone think they are trying to tell anyone who they should and should not want to fuck (children, animals, etc being the exception).
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I don't consider heterosexuality a fetish, but it makes for a good joke, and if it shuts even one idiot up to view it that way then by all means.