Know what’s kinda crazy? The “lefties” are mad at the government right now. The “righties” are mad at the government right now... and somehow... because both are unhappy with the government... they are focused most on... each other? The elephant in the room here is that both have gripes with the same people... and it seems to me that both somewhat have interests that serve each other.... defunding the police... well logically... the role of the individual citizen in their self defense becomes more important right? That’s a very pro gun message- I don’t see how you ant get two camps together on that common goal.
Wanting to open businesses and not wear masks? Sure. Require masks for businesses deemed “essential” and then let private businesses set their own mask policy if they aren’t essential. People who don’t want to wear masks get a win, people who think masks are smart can avoid businesses that don’t require them- if the no mask folks are right- no harm done. If the no mask folks are wrong- we have an unprecedented opportunity to clean house a bit and sweep a lot of morons up at once with clean hands. Everyone wins.
Also, the business owner who decides to open up without a mask puts HIS WORKER S at risk, not himself. So he's gonna make that call for business reasons, disregarding human reasons. And then the employees don't have a choice, because they lose the possibility to claim unemployment since their businees has re-opened even tho it has re-opened in a way that puts them in harms way.
So no, it's not half as simple as "let the morons harm themselves in their own bubble and pick up the survivors in 6 months", their "choice" to ignore facts and science for their convenience affects others directly, which is why it goes beyond their personal freedom.
The other side is manifesting against police brutality and racism, so it's not exactly the same.
Not exactly the same no- objectively. Subjectively am individual will think whatever they care most about is the most important thing. As for the unemployment- I didn’t specify but thought it might be implied that under the listed logic we couldn’t force people to go somewhere masks aren’t required- which would include employees. But really that’s a touch too detailed as the second part was really just tongue in cheek and not a Serious proposal.
@f_kyeahhmaburg- they most certainly do. I was being satirical- speaking objectively from the perspective of one addressing a mixed group which includes people who don’t think masks work. Nothing you or I say would likely convince those people as a group that masks work as nothing accredited experts and leaders have said seems to have. So if they want to believe masks don’t work- in our hypothetical scenario that’s how I’d present it, to avoid causing them to become combative and instead to elicit cooperation. So “if you’re right...” in this sense is essentially a parent betting a child on the outcome of a well known event, which the parent knows but the child does not and insists will occurs differently than it will. “Sure kiddo. If you’re right- you can stay up as late as you want this week. If I’m right, you have to do these extra chores all week...”
The reason the right and the left can't come together is because we literally can't have a discussion about how Jews are in charge and fucking both of us. Lefties short circuit if you try to tell them about it, and even most righties are christcucks who fall for the "jews are gods chosen people" bullshit or they're so tied up in "nazis bad/jews good" that they can't handle it either.
I was intending to answer to @guest_ here to agree with him, but sweet Jesus, harperfan spitting tons of antisemite BS in only two sentences just ran me over like a truck.
Guess what: Nazis are bad! And making Jews responsible for everything you don't like might have been a very popular strategy in Europe's dark ages, but man, maybe you should read a book instead of forming your opinions on 4chan.
I’m gonna side with Nic on this one- with the caveat that SOME people have legitimate reasons not to- like medical ones etc. And I mean- maybe not morons- but perhaps foolish, ignorant, or ACTING moronic. Now- I’ll agree that there is a bit of over reach in the philosophy of the government dictating what a person can and can’t do on private property- but.... they do. All the time. And most of us agree it is a good thing.
Be thankful that while owning a gun is legal- it isn’t legal for me to shoot riffles at my own walls or backyard fence adjacent your house. How dare they tell me what to do in my home. Most people are thankful that I cant do burnouts on my lawn next to thee home. Most are thankful the government tells private individuals that they MUST wear a hair net or wash their hands when making your food. “The employee has a choice... yeah. The same one you do. Do it, or leave the premises. The law tells attraction operators what they must do to keep customers safe. The law tells customers what they can or can’t do. Target doesn’t post any signs- but shoot your gun off in the store- it’s private property, no one said you couldn’t. You’ll be fine. No cops right?
So yes- telling you that you must wear a mask on private property is stepping into personal freedom. Yes, in public spaces there should technically be a vote or other measure of public approval for any long term rule on masks in public since we own those spaces- and we DO need to be mindful that legislators don’t abuse emergency powers to enact things without due process that shouldn’t be.
Interestingly I've had to go out almost every day since this started. been fortunate enough to not have been in a situation where a mask would have helped so far.
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The people I see acting stupidly and doing idiotic things that put people at risk 9 times out of 10 have a mask strapped to their face.
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It's almost like the masks aren't actually indicative of the precautions taken and behaviour of the person wearing them.
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But people get to give themselves backpats over it, and at the end of the day that's what's important here
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And no... most of us don't agree that the government dictating every aspect of our lives is a good thing. You're confusing us with North Korea.
But do understand that in a single day- Corona Virus killed 2/3 as many people as 9/11 in America. It has killed about 10x as many people total- and we haven’t reacted as dramatically as far as what freedoms have been trounced in the name of safety. Will we still be wearing masks after 19 years without a case of Corona in the USA? Will the government be monitoring our communications and maintaining lists of people not allowed to travel because of Corona? Maybe. Doubtful. To the “no mask” crowd- if you want to fight for freedom- go take care of what was done post 9/11 first- real, terrifying abuses and erosions of democratic freedom that never went away.
TL,DR: shut the fuck up and wear your mask. It protects others. If it was about protecting yourself nobody would give two shits because if you want to put yourself in harms way just to prove a point, by all means, be my guest. Your personal liberties stop when they start putting others in harms way.
"Shut the fuck and wear your mask" - now you're sounding like a true dictator. Well done
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Why is it anyone else's job to protect you specifically?
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Generally speaking someone not wearing a mask does not put you at risk if you yourself are following appropriate protocols:
-social distancing
-wearing your own mask
-not touching your face
-keeping your hands clean
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At what point does your inability to follow your own protocols become more important than other peoples' basic human rights?
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For that matter - what do you do about people who CAN'T wear masks?
I love how wearing a medical mask for a few weeks until this all blows over is some massive inconvenience to people and an expression of tyranny. It's not that big of a deal. And they literally make masks for people with respiratory problems so that's no excuse. And as one of our own members put it, she has a respiratory problem, which is specifically why she DOES wear a mask, because she's more likely than anyone the get seriously ill
I have a respiratory problem as well, since apparently we need qualifiers to validate our stances for some weird reason. Firstly: not all respiratory issues are created equal. Secondly: There are more reasons than respiratory issues why someone might not be able to wear a mask.
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And you're literally ignoring the basic point: wearing a mask is not the issue. The government mandating that you do not have a choice is the issue.
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I find it hilarious that countries that have been horrendously vocal about how oppressive things like hijabs are for the last two decades can't wrap their minds around this most basic of concepts when it's applied now.
Ok. Let’s reframe this. Let’s see if we can base line it. @Xvarnah- do you believe that it should be unconstitutional for the government to require vaccinations?
Yes or no.
Do you believe the government shouldn’t be able to tell people they cannot smoke in public places , in schools or hospitals?
Yes or no.
Do you believe that the government shouldn’t be able to mandate that private employers make employees wear respirators or nuclear protective equipment when working with hazardous substances- yes or no?
Please answer these YES OR NO questions so we can all try and see your perspective a little better.
So far you all (as a collective, not individually) have ignored the basic points I've made, tried to involve qualifiers, told me to shut the fuck up, called me a moron, and now you're attempting to set the terms for a conversation about a whole spiel of things I didn't bring up?
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And I'm supposed to believe you have some interest in understanding my viewpoint? Seems to me is that all you're trying to do is get me to say something that you can go "aha! See how hypocritical you are! See why this is wrong?"
Yes because it works the same way :
You smoking in a restaurant next to me causes harm to me, therefore, it's banned.
You refusing to vaccinate your kids because facebook told you it's bad puts others in harms way, therefore your kid is banned from public schools (unless a doctor, with an actual medical license, who went to med school says your kid has a medical reason not to be vaccinated. Which btw is the reason why others who CAN do it NEED to do it, because it protects those who can't).
It's really not hard : are you placing your personal convenience over other's safety to prove a point ? If the answer is yes, you're not a "martyr fighting against oppression", that's what people in HK are doing, you're a c*nt.
Ain't it the right who has a ginormous moron who likes to say 'facts don't care about your feelings' ? Well facts say wearing a mask protects others and helps slow down the spread. Your feelings on the matter don't matter.
You're going to strain your back jumping to all those conclusions like that, you know. Not to mention deliberately avoiding the points I've made, yet again. That's like 3 people in a row. But you DID manage to add some more insults, so at least it's consistent.
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I really don't know how to make this simpler for people. I can't use smaller words, I'm sincerely sorry.
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-wearing a mask isn't a bad thing.
-the government making it mandatory is.
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And just an fyi - once again you are the one placing your personal convenience over the other person's. If you stay at a safe distance and wear your own mask and wash your hands.... They can't get you sick. But for some reason you don't want to do that. Because you don't want to do that, you're demanding other people surrender their rights to the government.
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And once the government takes rights the first time, it becomes extremely easy for them to do so again.
I also find it really bizarre that people keep comparing a virus that has a high recovery rate to something like smoke (which literally infests walls and continues to be toxic years after the fact), and comparing face masks with someone injecting actual fluid substances into your body - a process which has a potential to go very wrong, and if nothing else is invasive.
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That said, given the repeated failure to actually address any of the things I've said, I've honestly completely lost interest in this "conversation."
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I likely don't even live in the same country as you, so have no fear - I am unlikely to kill you by breathing anytime in the near future. Then again, if you invade my personal space to that degree, I can't promise it will end WELL.
Oh no, you have me scared.
If seat belts work, why do we need airbags ? If airbags work why do we need the seat belts ? And if both work, why on earth do we need brakes ? Because it turns out, none are 100% effective, but they add up and compliment each other nicely.
The reason it's ok to enforce the use of masks is BECAUSE THE DECISION NOT TO WEAR ONE ENDANGERS OTHERS AND NOT ONLY YOU. So it's no longer your decision alone to make.
It's the same reason smoking in restaurants is banned. BECAUSE IT AFFECTS OTHERS.
Jesus you say we don't address your point, but the point was made 23 messages ago and you ignore it : Your personal liberties stop when they cause harm to others.
And of course you're now defending anti-vaxxers.
@xvarnah- what I am hearing from your perspective, is that it is neither constructive nor desirable for people to disregard what is being said and deflect entire posts off hand? And that we shouldn’t avoid jumping to conclusions in our logic by making assumptions? So then... your reply to my “yes or no” questions was less of an actual reply- and more a demonstration of the types of behavior you would like us to avoid in this discussion?
Well- now that I understand that better- one thing that is somewhat to the point of what I was asking is that you say that smoking in public is not the same as not wearing a mask because smoke and byproducts linger? I will agree that cigarette smoke and a virus are not the same in that regard.
That said- as to the second part of your assertion, I believe it to be logically false. Cigarette smoke has a CHANCE to cause a person to experience health impacts or death- so wether we talk about corona or smoke- we are talking about a RISK of health problems- not a certainty.
But the point it SEEMS you are making- is not that the government is overstepping its authority in requiring masks- but that you believe the government is reacting too strongly. In other words- with cigarette smoke you feel the risk is high enough to warrant a government mandate on personal freedoms in the name of safety- but with corona you feel that the risk is not high enough to warrant the restriction of personal freedom.
Tl:dr- from what I can gather from your response, what I read is that we aren’t actually discussing wether or not the government has the right to restrict personal liberties in the name of public well being- we are discussing that you do not think that the corona virus is a serious enough risk to the public to warrant the government restricting freedoms to reduce potential risk. Sound about correct?
So no, it's not half as simple as "let the morons harm themselves in their own bubble and pick up the survivors in 6 months", their "choice" to ignore facts and science for their convenience affects others directly, which is why it goes beyond their personal freedom.
The other side is manifesting against police brutality and racism, so it's not exactly the same.
Guess what: Nazis are bad! And making Jews responsible for everything you don't like might have been a very popular strategy in Europe's dark ages, but man, maybe you should read a book instead of forming your opinions on 4chan.
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Letting the government dictate that you MUST wear one is the problem.
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The people I see acting stupidly and doing idiotic things that put people at risk 9 times out of 10 have a mask strapped to their face.
.
It's almost like the masks aren't actually indicative of the precautions taken and behaviour of the person wearing them.
.
But people get to give themselves backpats over it, and at the end of the day that's what's important here
.
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And no... most of us don't agree that the government dictating every aspect of our lives is a good thing. You're confusing us with North Korea.
.
.
Why is it anyone else's job to protect you specifically?
.
Generally speaking someone not wearing a mask does not put you at risk if you yourself are following appropriate protocols:
-social distancing
-wearing your own mask
-not touching your face
-keeping your hands clean
.
At what point does your inability to follow your own protocols become more important than other peoples' basic human rights?
.
For that matter - what do you do about people who CAN'T wear masks?
.
And you're literally ignoring the basic point: wearing a mask is not the issue. The government mandating that you do not have a choice is the issue.
.
I find it hilarious that countries that have been horrendously vocal about how oppressive things like hijabs are for the last two decades can't wrap their minds around this most basic of concepts when it's applied now.
Yes or no.
Do you believe the government shouldn’t be able to tell people they cannot smoke in public places , in schools or hospitals?
Yes or no.
Do you believe that the government shouldn’t be able to mandate that private employers make employees wear respirators or nuclear protective equipment when working with hazardous substances- yes or no?
Please answer these YES OR NO questions so we can all try and see your perspective a little better.
.
And I'm supposed to believe you have some interest in understanding my viewpoint? Seems to me is that all you're trying to do is get me to say something that you can go "aha! See how hypocritical you are! See why this is wrong?"
You smoking in a restaurant next to me causes harm to me, therefore, it's banned.
You refusing to vaccinate your kids because facebook told you it's bad puts others in harms way, therefore your kid is banned from public schools (unless a doctor, with an actual medical license, who went to med school says your kid has a medical reason not to be vaccinated. Which btw is the reason why others who CAN do it NEED to do it, because it protects those who can't).
It's really not hard : are you placing your personal convenience over other's safety to prove a point ? If the answer is yes, you're not a "martyr fighting against oppression", that's what people in HK are doing, you're a c*nt.
Ain't it the right who has a ginormous moron who likes to say 'facts don't care about your feelings' ? Well facts say wearing a mask protects others and helps slow down the spread. Your feelings on the matter don't matter.
.
I really don't know how to make this simpler for people. I can't use smaller words, I'm sincerely sorry.
.
-wearing a mask isn't a bad thing.
-the government making it mandatory is.
.
And just an fyi - once again you are the one placing your personal convenience over the other person's. If you stay at a safe distance and wear your own mask and wash your hands.... They can't get you sick. But for some reason you don't want to do that. Because you don't want to do that, you're demanding other people surrender their rights to the government.
.
And once the government takes rights the first time, it becomes extremely easy for them to do so again.
.
That said, given the repeated failure to actually address any of the things I've said, I've honestly completely lost interest in this "conversation."
.
I likely don't even live in the same country as you, so have no fear - I am unlikely to kill you by breathing anytime in the near future. Then again, if you invade my personal space to that degree, I can't promise it will end WELL.
If seat belts work, why do we need airbags ? If airbags work why do we need the seat belts ? And if both work, why on earth do we need brakes ? Because it turns out, none are 100% effective, but they add up and compliment each other nicely.
The reason it's ok to enforce the use of masks is BECAUSE THE DECISION NOT TO WEAR ONE ENDANGERS OTHERS AND NOT ONLY YOU. So it's no longer your decision alone to make.
It's the same reason smoking in restaurants is banned. BECAUSE IT AFFECTS OTHERS.
Jesus you say we don't address your point, but the point was made 23 messages ago and you ignore it : Your personal liberties stop when they cause harm to others.
And of course you're now defending anti-vaxxers.