My bf and I were discussing how much better off the U.S. would be with this

We have them separated from society why not use that time to help them learn how to behave more civilly instead of training them to be survivalists. Which do you want them to hand down to the next generation when they get out?

Some people are just about evil. Pocket cases but enough exist. Nothing to be done with them except remove them forever from the public. But why are people fundamentally in jail? Because they couldn’t or wouldn’t follow the rules of society. They weren’t all or even most dangerous- they’re disruptive. Well... most prisoners get released some day. When they get released after spending years unemployed and in a system completely unlike the outside world- dumping people back in who didn’t know how to behave... they are just likely to misbehave again. We didn’t give them any tools or even allow them to practice socially acceptable behavior. Many will go back because the same reasons they went in to start.

If you’ve got a repeat minor non violent non sex offender- how much do we need to make their life miserable for whatever they did? They’re already locked away. There is a point where we are just being needless cruel and that says more about us as a society and as people than about the criminals. Even habitual and more extreme offenders- not all are evil or sadists or such- many just can’t fit in to society. A guy that can’t for the life of him figure out a way to control his temper or solve problems without violence- he doesn’t belong in society- he has hurt people and likely will again. But if we create a place for these people who are dangerous to society to live where they can only hurt others like them- and where we can tailor the rules and environment and care to their particular needs- we can keep society safe AND not have to be punitive simply because they couldn’t play nice with others.

But again- to be clear- there ARE people so heinous or who’s crimes are so heinous- that they don’t qualify for this sentiment. People who even in an isolated and controlled society of criminals- cannot simply be allowed to mull about and will NEVER be able to rehabilitate enough to even be allowed amongst criminals- who simply having freedom of any sort is dangerous.

Plagiarists.

Especially self plagiarizers those bastards.

There is no hole deep enough.

@rosalinas Look, this ain't personal and much love, but you're wrong when it comes towards how US prison systems are intended to work (they aren't and they fucking suck). It's literally written than rehabilitation over punishment is the goal. For some things, that truly is impossible, but this current system punishes everyone for arbitrary shit, shit people aren't even actually guilty of, and the taxpayer. Everyone loses. It's all a bunch of bullshit and the US would be better off if we didn't do this. I know you aren't in the US, so I know you don't know what you don't know; I'm just trying... enlightment? Idk :/

What else do you recommend? Death penalty provenly doesn't work, so?

That we invest more into rehabilitation rather than punishment. It's not a far out concept.

Sorry, that question was pointed towards the OP, I personally am thoroughly convinced that rehabilitation and resocialisation are the only option.

Rehabilitation and resocialization? Sure. For the ones who deserve it.

Get punished for your wrong doings and the get the rehabilitation that you need.
If you do something wrong (break the laws), you will be punished, doesn't matter you're young, uneducated,... You have to pay the price.
And to prevent you from being isolated, scared, confused after the punishment, it's the government responsibility to guild you, help you to get back to society which is the rehabilitation.
Am I missing anything?

The financial point of your original question was pointing in another direction, which made me understand you don't want to fund rehabilitation. Sorry, if I got you wrong.
Punishment still is a concept that hasn't shown any significant change in people's behaviour. I'm not saying, murderers or such should roam around freely, they need to be detained as long as it takes to bring them back to being functional members of society. But I don't see the incarceration as punishment, but a necessary step to keep society safe from their mislead behaviours as long as they haven't thoroughly understood what's wrong with them and then worked it out. There are very few cases in which rehabilitation doesn't work, I agree, but there are possibilities in place to keep them away from the rest of us.

Punishment isn't for "turning the bad back to good"
Punishment is for the people who are tempted to commit crime to see.
Most criminals know what they do are wrong but they're doing anyways.
Lots of people don't commit crimes not BC they're good, it's BC they know they will get caught and they will be punished harshly that's what stops them.

I'm all for rehabilitating druggies, vagrants, and petty criminals, but the bad motherfuckers should not be bothered with. Murderers, rapists, gangsters, pedophiles, they fucked up too badly to ever be allowed any comfort or rehabilitation. There needs to be punishment, and closure. And when administered by the state, it needs to be cold, impersonal, and beyond any reasonable doubt.

Punishment CAN act as a deterrent- but most studies on the subject show two important things:
1. Punishment does not offer a significant deterrence for most crimes- especially the most heinous ones. A large number of crimes are either “spur of the moment” and as such- a decision making process weighing consequences and such doesn’t come in to play; or the perpetrator doesn’t care or physiologically lacks the ability to see through the consequences. 2. Whatever deference punishment offers isn’t linear- it doesn’t scale with harsher punishment after an initial point. In other words- giving a person a month in prison is psychologically equivalent as a deterrent to giving a year or even cutting off a finger. At a point- especially when we start talking more extreme punishments that most people don’t have previous experience with- like 20 years in jail or death- it becomes moot as since you lack experience, in the mind a “bad consequence” is just conceptualized as “bad” regardless.

The wealthy are well aware of this. A major corner stone of wealth and power is knowing how to read crowds and pander, more so- to exploit these human failings and turn them into profit. From McDonald’s to Marlborough to Apple/Microsoft and Facebook, Twitter... presidential candidates... they find and fuel and turn human behaviors into ways to make money- fueling the basal and instinctual behaviors of people but directing them into actions that work for their goals.

A great number of people are righteous and petty at our cores. Above that though- we are illogical and ignorant. Not entirely our fault. We run on intuition. Instinct. What we see and perceive is our reality. The truth is often not intuitive. Most people that don’t know better- when the dog poops on the rug they scold it. Makes sense. Primitive. If you don’t like someone’s behavior you assert dominance and use force or threat of force to show that behavior isn’t tolerated.

But that can be counter productive. Yelling at a dog for barking is more likely to cause more barking. As humans we have what appears to be a unique ability to analyze ourselves and our environment in complex ways and identify patterns. If we use this- we find that often what is intuitive to us is actually counter productive to a given goal. Giving a poor person a million dollars is more likely to see them worse off than they started for example. Instead of just giving them money- they need to be taught financial skills and discipline. It’s hard for many to grasp or admit when what SEEMS helpful to us, when the way we think the world works- isn’t. Our world views are fragile as often is our self image. We do not like- and tend to reject- that which challenges those things.

So a need to fee vindication, a desire for revenge which makes many define justice as a punitive action- feeling powerful, and above all- a need to feel safe and in control of our world- a fragile world view that makes us feel that every perceived wrong must be punished and that the intuitive idea that meeting force with force is always the best way to handle things- compels many folks to embrace our current system. That and as a way to exercise their own desires to see others suffer- but under the justification and social shield that these people “deserve to suffer.”

So like politics and products that profit the bearer- enterprising sorts with flexible morality know the failings and foibles of the many- and use those, guide and harness those, to profit themselves.

Yes, that is called trauma informed space. So often social services are designed with budget and nothing else in mind because we have this (not untrue) idea that our funding will be slashed at any time, so we rewire our brains to work on a panic level instead of a nurturing level. Trauma informed space is not only economical, it works better and helps people more. The day center at the organization i used to work at was rebuilt was trauma informed in mind and it made a world of difference.

It’s sad but true. Social services is often the sacrificial lamb. People in positions to vote and in politics are very rarely personally impacted in profound ways by the benefits provided- they may enjoy the effects without realizing it- but social services are like the tires of the car that is society. Critically important- not something most people think about or care about quality as much as price- and only really getting attention when something is wrong enough for them to notice.

As a once prisoner I'd just like pointing out the worst part isn't the race wars, abuse from guards, nor the fucking showers.... it's the lack of sunlight. That vitamin D deficiency hits hard and has exactly zero remorse.
The showers are actually decent and it's nothing like it's depicted in rape jokes.

I'd say like most large scale systems run by the government, prisons are usually corrupt and lack sufficient funding to make the appropriate changes needed. Not to mention scientific evidence for better approaches take about 20-30 years to come to light, let alone implemented. Same with social services, funding is insanely low for the critical services they provide. Crime becomes a cycle wrapped up in insufficient parenting, low socio-economic status, lack of education, bad mental health support etc etc. It's hard to solve the root of a problem when they're are so many factors influencing the likelihood of someone committing a crime/ becoming a criminal. I think there are many misconceptions when it comes to justice or the prison system, namely the "simplicity" of rehabilitation. The support after prison is less than none and one of the most important factor , so most criminals end up recommitting just to remain in a stable environment. I'm rambling, My main point is, shizz be flawed.

Not rambling at all. Good points all around- and it is important to point out that hugs and warm meals won’t magically make repeat offenders rehabilitated. It is an ongoing and generally custom tailored process that is a lot of work. And people will say that the cost and money is better spent on people who “aren’t criminals” or that it isn’t societies responsibility to elevate people. Well... not only are there tangible benefits to the individuals life- but society benefits as well. And if we don’t want to build a society that lifts people up... what kind of society do we want? One that tears them down? Uses them up? There are hidden benefits all around. Disguised unemployment being a major one.

The problems we face with automation and other advances in labor and production- is that we already have more people than we “need.” But our economy requires you have a job to earn money to afford to live- even if your job is pointless. We are fast approaching the day we don’t need humans to flip fast food burgers or pack boxes or build most things.

Even where we can’t eliminate humans- we will reduce them. We already have. Using technology and automation we have reduced the number of people needed across the board in many fields- even skilled “white collar” work like accounting where a machine can do the calculations and never miss a law or change- never make an error* and then a human can check over the parts we NEED them for or feeler safer with them doing- before a machine does a final check.

We need to create jobs- preferably useful jobs- that human beings are still and likely for some time will be still better suited for or more practical for. Therapy robots and such have a place- but much of the human work of social services will likely be best done by or under care of a human for some time. It’s not a job that is so much location based- everywhere that people live can benefit from social services.

I agree, not only with the current situation right now but the overall unemployment rate is dropping rapidly. Many of my friends, who are young and finishing off their degrees are fearful of not finding a job or a stable career purely because it's so competitive now. Not saying it wasn't before, it just feels like not only have things become more expensive overall but remaining financially stable whilst also enjoying the job you have has become a pipe dream. Social service jobs, although amazing and greatly needed, are jobs that require a lot of resilience and empathy. You don't know where you'll end up, looking after foster kids who've been thrown around their entire lives or becoming a carer at a boarding school for troublesome indigenous boys, for example. It's one of those jobs that not many take because few find personal enjoyment out of it or see the worth in sacrificing their own emotional wellbeing for the benefit of others. Results are also not seen instantaneously.

It is a career that often has delayed gratification, is very taxing, and isn’t all feel good stories. People backslide, sometimes you see things that break your heart, or the best efforts to help still end in tragedy. The legal system and even the current social care systems sometimes are themselves the cause or fulcrum for tragedy in these cases. Any job like that- you’ll see the brightest and most disturbing sides of humanity.

But if we put some effort and funding into social services- we could mitigate some of the issues and create more work, for more types of people. Presently- most people in social service work wear many hats, fill ill defined roles or specialties which have them potentially wearing many hats and bouncing around. But with more support that could change. Work could be delegated and not only could those skilled workers be more focused- but those with a desire to help others but not maybe the credentials or aptitude for higher level social work could get involved too.

That’s a bit of cloud talk- but investing in social services is investing in society. Technological advancements bring potential for harm and good- social services and humanitarianism should be an important and central part of our future, as technology erodes the human economic value- we will need to invest heavily in the value of humans as more than labor units or parts of a machine.

It’s not far fetched to see a not so distant future where without artificial bulwarks designed to cling to old systems, unskilled human labor (which where laws do no protect it already IS almost worthless) could become nearly useless in most capacities- in a world where ones career and the earnings or prestige it brings are central to how we value people- how will society adapt to a world where human labor exists only where machine labor needs supplement? We will adapt, society. Just as we adapted to industrialization or agriculture long before that. The world changes and many see change as meaning doom or gettin worse. Just different. Many folks from the distant past wouldn’t like our world today and we wouldn’t really like living in theirs most likely- too different.

But that transition- while we navigate from today’s world to tomorrow’s, to new standards of industry and new metrics for society- there’s turbulence there. There’s likely a period before society has adapted where unemployment is high, where we are still looking at things from the perspective of a society where people are expected to work, must work- and to do otherwise is shameful or a failing. To get from here to there we will need strong social services to bridge the gap.

Ask the generational miners- many of them conservative- many of them in days past against welfare and social services. Working hard jobs but making decent money, an indispensable service. Until it wasn’t. Those towns and families were hit hard. Many have stabilized or bounced back after decades- but the poverty and upheaval and trauma that occurred didn’t have to. We never think it is going to be us that is in need. Even if people don’t think they should have to “carry others”- love long enough and someday you will need to be carried.

What the hell are we going to do then? Play Ready Player One? I'm dead serious, once we put everything on auto-pilot what the fuck are we gonna do? I don't actually expect an answer.

Could always go back to killing eachother. Been humanity's go-to pastime for millennia.

Lol. I think famousone is probably on base there- at least for awhile. But that is the big question. GR seemed to think humanity would embrace a system where people were free to pursue their passions and interests, make art, engineer, invent, conduct sciences and just generally better ourselves and society. I think that’s a tad ambitious and idealistic.

I’d say at the very least- some folks would do that. Try to be the best athletes and musicians and artists and so forth. But videogames probably would be big- already are. More and more racers and ex racers are turning to sim racing online as their primary or only form of motor sports. Online games, complex ones like EVE are basically an entire life you could live online if you didn’t have to pay bills. Hell- some people pay their bills playing some of these games.

We could go “backwards”- with all that free time maybe people start to be more self sufficient- community farming to supply food, maybe “green” living that is impractical in our current economy because people lack time and resources, and “green” products and such are still profit driven.

But why wouldnt we have people who clean up beaches, keep their neighborhoods clean, community outreach and help, doing chores and odd jobs for neighbors... volunteers to spend time and care for the elderly or others who could use human contact. Maybe people will raise their kids- spend time with them, teach them, explore with them? People with less places to be, less rush to be there, maybe we start walking and using public transit more, bicycles largely replace cars?

Or... maybe we all start killing each other. lol.

But that’s the big question- “what are people going to do...” because unless the law and government intervene to outright bar automation, or somehow use policy and taxes etc. to force hiring unskilled human employees for jobs machines would be cheaper, better, more consistent etc. for... we are going to find out what we will do if, or likely when, it happens. Population is increasing, jobs- especially those with “living wages” aren’t matching that pace- we already have more workers than we need. People making stuff no one wants or needs just so they have something to do. That becomes harder to do as resources become more scarce... so eventually if other things don’t change we will find out what we will do.

EVE, in particular, is absolutely fucking ridiculous with how expensive it can get; or how profitable it can be if your fleet doesn't get murked.
But yeah, I'd imagine our first instinct would be killing each other as well.
I CALL SPEARS AND JAVELINS.

Lol. EVE is ridiculous. And awesome. I can’t play it because I’m the sort of person who if I play EVE- I’d play to be the best- and that’s a game where that is a serious investment. Spears and Javelins are a solid choice.

Canadian Satan, and accidentally spending $20k overnight. I understand.

Lmao.