It's not that nuanced, children are little and have virtually no physical strength compared to an adult so even a slap hurts them more... also if you lack authority and capacity to make yourself understood and obeyed from your own children to the point of, not letting one slap slip, but embracing smacking as part as education, it's not a sign of being a fully functional adult.
So smacking a child who can't resist is unfair. How about putting someone in jail who can't resist?
You smack your kid for specific reasons. If my son came home at 17 and he had gotten a girl pregnant I'm not sending him to bed without supper. I'm smacking him, clearing my day, and helping him find a job. Discipline is love. Deliver it the best you can and your job as a parent is done. Undisciplined people have issues. Disciplined people solve issues.
If you haven't managed to teach him it's wrong beforehand, there might still be some problem with your parenting.
Ok that's borderine trolling and besides the point, but discipline comes in many ways and I think there's a very good reason it's now illegal in some places.
My entire point is about teaching right and wrong. You can't teach someone everything about right and wrong by 17. People still do wrong things in their 50's.
I have no idea what about what I said could be "trolling" but I see there's no point in furthering this discussion.
@adam44, I was saying that about my own first sentence that was borderline trolling because it felt a bit beside the point. That wasn't super clear in retrospect.
However, I'll just add one thing, there's a difference between not teaching everything and failing to teach something of this importance. He might not do it again if he remembers the spanking but it'll still be a bit late.
Once again, since this is about a very specific example, it's not completely relevant.
If we examine the argument that it is wrong to hit a child when they don’t do as we wish, or there is a communication breakdown- that would imply by its nature that it is sometimes right to hit other people when they don’t do as we wish, or when we can’t communicate right? So the next condition set forth is that a child can’t defend themselves or resist- but what is our metric there? Has anyone here been told when they were young that they couldn’t understand or couldn’t actually be in love etc- because they were too young and felt it was wrong for someone to say that because of their age, they weren’t capable? Most kids won’t change the world or make any large impact- but some do- so then wouldn’t the morality of hitting a child depend on the child? For example- if a child was capable of defending themselves or resisting- that would invalidate the premise that it’s wrong to hit a child because they can’t defend themselves no?
When Adam44 brings up an adult who isn’t capable of resisting or defending themselves- there’s actually a very good point to analyze there- we can’t say that not being able to resist or defend yourself is necessarily a universal barometer of application of force can we? Few people are capable of defending themselves against a military or police force- that’s the point. Overwhelming force to ensure people behave no? And we already established that a child who CAN defend themselves wouldn’t be excluded from use of force by the definition provided haven’t we? So what we have here is a special case- we are not calling use of force universally bad- and in the case of authority figures we are saying use of force to attain compliance is justified under certain circumstances.. so then perhaps the issue is more complex- paradoxically, the modern developed world abhors violence while enjoying a lack of violence provided by targeted application of violence, and indulging in violent entertainment.
Actually I think it all depends on the kid.
Some you can punish with a simple grounding or a talk to or simple taking of a prized item like game system, toy, or computer.
While there is the ones who really only will respond to spanking.
I grew up if you talked to me I did better.
My oldest and 2nd oldest brother grew up getting grounded.
My brother 2yrs younger than me and my youngest brother just take away something and they behaved.
Now my 2nd to youngest brother the black sheep my parents swore up and down they never spank. But trust me with him they should of.
Me and my brothers used to fist fight when we argue. Like cats and dogs. And only after we fight him and beat him would he act right.
He could never win even against our youngest brother.
We never started a fight unless it was a last resort.
Spanking though so many don’t approve is something that many need.
With my kid we just talk with her and take her computer and phone away. And she gets them back later.
Honestly, my parents would sometimes smack me but I don't even remember it, I have much worse memories from my dad yelling at me, saying really mean shit about how useless I am and all that (he's got a very short temper). To this day I get a panic attack when someone raises their voice at me, but I don't care all that much about a kid getting a light slap for acting like an asshole.
That's in my opinion the only reason for ever slapping a kid. When they do something wrong, first you explain why it's wrong, why it might harm other people or be bad for the kid, etc. Then, inevitably, the kid will test your limits and act like an asshole anyway, that's just what they do sometimes. That's when you give them a light smack. Not a full on spanking, just a slap to remind them that they won't get away with acting like an asshole, and that actions have consequences. I see too many parents these days not doing anything when their kid is an asshole to strangers and that's imo wrong too.
I would strongly agree. Violence against anyone should generally be a last resort or even not used at all. However, in reality violence underpins the very existence of our society. Militaries and police forces and militias and mobs using force or threat of force to ensure compliance to social norms and behaviors seen as constructive. If we eliminate violent crimes and crimes of “passion” and such- and looked at crimes where the issue is behavioral- where no real and immanent danger or threat to life or body exists- why would we use resources on theft or embezzlement or littering or perjury or any of the many crimes we regulate for commerce or social good? Why not use the resources spent there to create social programs that teach and reinforce the lessons we want people to learn and only use force against those who use force in a dangerous manner?
The message has a good heart- but the logic is way off base. What’s more, the logic that thinking it is ok to hit children is a sign something is wrong with you, is the logic of a person who’s sees the role of an adult as one who shields children from reality vs. one who prepares children for reality- and our individual realities vary by when and where we are and other life circumstances.
What does one do then? If a person hits a child? Let’s say that hitting a child is a sign something is wrong with you- that’s not really your fault is it? So the same logic would hold that you can’t really be blamed for the act- you’re a victim the same as the child. If anything, by this same logic, one shouldn’t be punished for hitting a child so much as one should be communicated with and taught. But there in lies a big part of the problem- we don’t practice what we preach. We tell children to behave a certain way and expect people to uphold high morality concerning children- but when those children grow up we no longer expect those protections or really care by and large. We are often more concerned with seeing our own righteous indignation vented on those we see as villains than we are on applying the type of understanding and compassion and effort we would ask from or to a child.
The idea of corporal punishment and children is quite a complex discussion IMHO
You smack your kid for specific reasons. If my son came home at 17 and he had gotten a girl pregnant I'm not sending him to bed without supper. I'm smacking him, clearing my day, and helping him find a job. Discipline is love. Deliver it the best you can and your job as a parent is done. Undisciplined people have issues. Disciplined people solve issues.
Ok that's borderine trolling and besides the point, but discipline comes in many ways and I think there's a very good reason it's now illegal in some places.
I have no idea what about what I said could be "trolling" but I see there's no point in furthering this discussion.
However, I'll just add one thing, there's a difference between not teaching everything and failing to teach something of this importance. He might not do it again if he remembers the spanking but it'll still be a bit late.
Once again, since this is about a very specific example, it's not completely relevant.
Some you can punish with a simple grounding or a talk to or simple taking of a prized item like game system, toy, or computer.
While there is the ones who really only will respond to spanking.
I grew up if you talked to me I did better.
My oldest and 2nd oldest brother grew up getting grounded.
My brother 2yrs younger than me and my youngest brother just take away something and they behaved.
Now my 2nd to youngest brother the black sheep my parents swore up and down they never spank. But trust me with him they should of.
Me and my brothers used to fist fight when we argue. Like cats and dogs. And only after we fight him and beat him would he act right.
He could never win even against our youngest brother.
We never started a fight unless it was a last resort.
Spanking though so many don’t approve is something that many need.
With my kid we just talk with her and take her computer and phone away. And she gets them back later.
That's in my opinion the only reason for ever slapping a kid. When they do something wrong, first you explain why it's wrong, why it might harm other people or be bad for the kid, etc. Then, inevitably, the kid will test your limits and act like an asshole anyway, that's just what they do sometimes. That's when you give them a light smack. Not a full on spanking, just a slap to remind them that they won't get away with acting like an asshole, and that actions have consequences. I see too many parents these days not doing anything when their kid is an asshole to strangers and that's imo wrong too.