As I said in another comment, it's also illegal for anyone to force us to do so as well as being illegal to punish or exclude said student for not reciting or standing during it.
The same right that protects us from saying it doesn't stop you from following your traditions as long as they don't include intruding on the freedoms of others. As the saying goes, your freedom to move your fist ends where my face begins and vice versa. A funny way of saying your rights ends where my rights begin.
For those who are uninformed, it is universally agreed that the Pledge of Allegiance is a form of indoctrination. When I was in school, I refused to recite it for various reasons which led to one of my teachers writing me up for "disrespecting the flag/soldiers". Luckily, the principal seemed to be aware that it is illegal for them to attempt to force me to recite the Pledge or even punish for me such a thing. See West Virginia BOE vs Barnette where it was declared by the Supreme Court that forcing someone to recite the Pledge, at least in the case of government funded places such as a public school, it is a violation of the First and Fourteenth Amendments. As for the first, it is due to the religous subtext in both the devotion towards the country as well as the literal "One nation, under God" segment. The 14th being due to the punishment being a restriction of the citizen's priviliges.
To my teacher's credit, she said I could just stand without saying it, but that would imply that I respected such practices even though I didn't recite the Pledge. I refused that as well which was followed with a pink slip.
Now, I'm curious as to whether or not it would apply if the "Under God" portion was removed. I would wager not as the religious undertone isn't alone as it is also a violation of your freedom from "official control" as stated in the Supreme Court Ruling.
I wouldn't recite it due to the "Under God" part as well... never had an issue with it. I never even had to explain it. Other dudeman was asked first and explained it the exact way I would have. Damn near half the class stopped for a few months until they just started doing it out of ritual again. This was in the suburbs of Dallas.
We use a capital G because it's used to refer to him. We capitalise the letters for stuff like Mom, Dad, and Grandma, as well. Zeus, Persephone, Odin or the Flying Spaghetti Monster are also capitalised. It doesn't matter whether your faith is Abrahamic, in English it is capitalised. But not everyone has to capitalise Him, because that doesn't follow the rules.
The capital G is usually used in reference to the god of a monotheistic religion. This is usually because God is a noun in those cases. God is the name of the person while god is usually an adjective or title. Further, the official USA website links to a website that uses the capital G. I personally dislike using God because that denotes more respect than he deserves. I call him Yahweh because that is his true name within the Bible and it is my method of humanizing this being we made.
Ironically Jews stopped calling him Yahweh because it was too sacred to be spoken. So Yahweh is actually elevating the entity we know as God to an impersonal level.
I've actually loved using his name. I actually asked a preacher if he believed in the other gods when he came up to me at the request of another member who invited me to the church. The other gods "like Zeus, Thor, Allah, Yahweh." And he gave me a rather important response. "No, I believe in the Lord."
I say important because it really was a spark in my new, and more kind, philosophy. It made me realize they were probably only a few thousand Christians on Earth. All the others are members of an ambiguous other religion that only said they were Christians because they didn't know what else to call themselves. They were Christians who believed values that were diametrically opposed to Christianity. Some weird branch of a religion that belives in a Jesus that isn't the same Jesus of the Bible. A being who they confused with the same Jesus of the Bible. It's really an odd thing that made me somewhat nicer to some religious people.
Well there are christians who believe that Allah, Yahweh and God are 3 seperate entities and that God is the one true God. I actually disagree I think they may be the same but our religions and practices are hugely different. Also the messiah is different.
Alot of Christians do miss the point of christianity. Its about love and grace NOT hell fire and damnation for gays and nonbelievers.
I was visiting a U.S military base once, and apparently they had the tradition of playing the national anthem over the thousands of speakers spread through out the compound. I'm European, so when I heard the national anthem being played, I thought it was odd for some random time in the afternoon, but didn't think much more of it and went about my business.
It wasn't long before I noticed everyone had stood still with their hands on their hearts and their eyes shooting daggers at me for casually walking by... Oops... :O
It's not like america is the only country to do that (except we sang the national anthem every morning instead of the pledge). It's really not that weird.
It's not weird that it is virtually compulsory to swear your life to defend your country regardless of what it does, what is has done, and what it is doing whether it be pursing freedom or torturing children before you understand what most of the words you are saying mean?
I agree. It's not weird: it far exceeds that. It's very, very disturbing.
I would not defend this country, but I respect those who do. I respect anyone who is firm enough in their beliefs to die for it. If you want to read more, then look at the comments with texasranger as I spoke on that topic. Here is a short excerpt:
spiderwoman · 1 day ago
I should stand? Why? I am respecting every person who has ever died for this country in the simple act of refusing to stand. I am ironically standing up for my rights, my liberties, and the freedom that those soldiers died to give me. They died to give me these rights. I am respecting them by using these rights that they died to defend.
I would indeed. The flag is nothing but fabric. The Supreme Court has ruled that we are free to do essentially whatever we want with the flag as it is protected by the First Amendment.
It's not about what it is, it's about what it represents, and it's not about whether you can, it's about whether you should. Sure you can piss on your flag, but is it really respectful to the people who died protecting it?
Is it indoctrination yes. You are not required to say it unlike in Nazi germany or the soviet union where you were shot for showing disloyalty. Big difference.
Did you know that it was a choice when you were six? seven? ten? fourteen? Sixteen? There are people who lived their entire life not knowing that it wasn't mandatory. I would argue that it IS mandatory. It takes a lot of bravery to stand up to peer pressure especially when you are being threatened with actual punishment by administration or by being outcasted by your peers. The biggest reason I managed not to do it was because:
1.) I didn't care what people thought of me
2.) I was already an outcast.
And most importantly 3.) I preferred to do what I feel I am morally obligated to do regardless of what people will think of me. Almost nobody, if anybody, in my class knew it wasn't mandatory until they saw me sit down silently and a teacher attempt to force me. It's important to make an example for others. To know that you don't have to do something and that you aren't alone...
...I won't claim to have changed any lives, but I know for a fact that one kid took it to heart as he didn't stand for it again to my knowledge. Whether it was for the same reasons as my own, he finally learned that he had a privilige that others refused to let him know about. It is just as immoral to restrict someone's access to their rights as it is to restrict their knowledge of those rights.
Yes I did actually. And I know people that didnt know. It was made clear to me that you certainly dont have to say it. But you SHOULD stand. You dont have to stand but you should out of respect. Teachers who try to force kids to stand or say it are missing the point. A action forced has no meaning. A choice holds true meaning. I stood and said the pledge because I wanted to and I believe it. I don't condemn patriotism even nationalism. Patriotism is acceptable there is nothing shameful about loving your country. Has the United States committed terrible attrocities and oppressed people? Absolutely. But what can I do about it. I can do what ever I can to make my country better. A country is just a group of people with some imaginary lines and scratches on paper. The real heart of a country is its people. And I love our people.
But you are right about being informed. Controlling information and knowledge is perhaps one of the more powerful things a society has. People have a right to be informed and SHOULD be informed. Thats the genious of the freedom of the press. But our media chooses to be squabbling idiots. Not all just a fair few.
I should stand? Why? I am respecting every person who has ever died for this country in the simple act of refusing to stand. I am ironically standing up for my rights, my liberties, and the freedom that those soldiers died to give me. They died to give me these rights. I am respecting them by using these rights that they died to defend.
As for the simple manner of patriotism, I am far from someone who respects and loves their contry. A country isn't just imaginary lines. It's a foundation of how you can live, what you can do, and the opinions of its leaders. I am ashamed of my country for what is has done, what it is doing, and what it will do. I don't like the state it is in nor what it represents. It wouldn't be too far a stretch to call the USA the worst first world country. I have faith in humanity and in the people of the United States. But just as a mother loves all her children, she cannot help but feel saddened and ashamed by the path her child has chosen.
Im fully aware of the attrocities the united states has committed and are commiting. But because I love my country I want it to do better. I will devote my live to better my country. And just like a father who loves is children he will be there when they succeed and when they fail help them up if need be. In truth if you're not a little bit ashamed of your countries history then you dont know your countries history very well. That goes for every country on the planet.
It's basically the American Pledge altered for Texas. I have a slight suspision that it was made with the idea of Texas seceding from the US due to Texas' long history of trying/wanting/threatening to do so. The time period for it doesn't match my knowledge of the times it has attempted to.
"Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible." Note: The "one state under God" was only added in June 15, 2007. A rather late addition as the United States officially, and arguably illegally, added the same phrase to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.
The secede thing is only a running joke. Nobody is actually serious (nobody who knows anything that is) we texans may toot that horn after a shiner to many. Its because we used to be our own country and because we still hold on to that in tradition only. I believe we are also the only state besides Hawaii to fly our flag at equal hight of the US flag. While we cant legally secede (losing the civil war ended that debate) we are still proud of it. Thus we have our own pledge.
I never had to say the Texas state pledge. I knew we had one, but I never even knew the words. That "one state under God" part apparently happened after I graduated HS, never knew about that either. FFS what is this state becoming. Not cool.
I agree. I dont like the hardline partisan brainwashing thats become so prevalent. And this is coming from someone who is religious. I lean conservative on a several issues. But guess what I also have liberal views on others. Because conservative solutions to those issues in particular are crap! And that makes me a traitor or a pussy.
For a German, it's really odd thinking of it. Flags are no more than strangely dyed pieces of cloth made in China, national thinking only leading to a 'us vs them' kind of thinking and still it is very widespread to force both onto children. Spooky.
I'm actually oddly opposed to Germany. It is arguably reasonably sensitive about Nazi things, but I feel they go way too far to the point of unjustly restricting free speech. I'm a bit of the hardcore human rights advocate. I have no issues with a group of Nazis having a meeting in the middle of town to discuss their hatred of everyone. The only issue is when said group starts to plan, advocate, or make threats to someone. Free speech has few exceptions and the incitement of violence is one of the necessary evils that must restrict it.
We have groups of Nazis having meetings in our fucking parliament. This only happened because in the last 20 years the majority of people thought, they were gone. And as Bert Brecht said : When fascism returns, it's not gonna say "I'm fascim", it's gonna say "I'm democracy". This is exactly what happened.
Free speech is based on tolerance and the weird thing about tolerance is, that it always has to be intolerant against intolerance. That's what people forgot.
But beside that, my post has nothing to do with any Nazi-sh*t, it is about the general concept of nationalism, which never has led to anything but ostracism, violence and war.
But those who don't learn from history...
I love this. My kids know they can stand, sit, or kneel during the pledge. They won’t get into trouble from me! I’m a veteran and I don’t mind at all if they choose to not do it.
Also, my youngest is in first grade and I volunteer at his school a lot. When I’m there if they say the pledge I stand but I don’t say it- The kids don’t notice. It’s an age appropriate kind of conversation. My 10yr old has noticed that some of her darker skinned friends have had issues that she hasn’t and we’ve had the inequality talk with her. She stands now but doesn’t say it. As she’s put it “why would I pledge support to a country that hurts my friends’ family?” It was a big decision for her and she knew she could get sent to the office but she also knew she had my full support on her decision.
Kids learn things when they’re young. Doesn’t mean they’re the right thing to learn just because it’s been done for years before.
The very fact that you let your child decide is amazing. I chose to stand and say the pledge. But your parenting is very respectable. I dont like it when parents shame their kids into making a decision that should be theirs. Thats the worst course in my opinion.
All these countries sound so hardcore.... in South Africa we're kinda just grateful if we know the entire Anthem instead of just the part in English... (it's made up of four different languages) ... the only time we really even sing it is when it's a world wide event
The same right that protects us from saying it doesn't stop you from following your traditions as long as they don't include intruding on the freedoms of others. As the saying goes, your freedom to move your fist ends where my face begins and vice versa. A funny way of saying your rights ends where my rights begin.
Now, I'm curious as to whether or not it would apply if the "Under God" portion was removed. I would wager not as the religious undertone isn't alone as it is also a violation of your freedom from "official control" as stated in the Supreme Court Ruling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette#Background
https://bensguide.gpo.gov/liberty-bell-1753/35-age-4/apprentice-symbols-of-us-government/86-pledge-of-allegiance-1892
I say important because it really was a spark in my new, and more kind, philosophy. It made me realize they were probably only a few thousand Christians on Earth. All the others are members of an ambiguous other religion that only said they were Christians because they didn't know what else to call themselves. They were Christians who believed values that were diametrically opposed to Christianity. Some weird branch of a religion that belives in a Jesus that isn't the same Jesus of the Bible. A being who they confused with the same Jesus of the Bible. It's really an odd thing that made me somewhat nicer to some religious people.
Alot of Christians do miss the point of christianity. Its about love and grace NOT hell fire and damnation for gays and nonbelievers.
It wasn't long before I noticed everyone had stood still with their hands on their hearts and their eyes shooting daggers at me for casually walking by... Oops... :O
I agree. It's not weird: it far exceeds that. It's very, very disturbing.
spiderwoman · 1 day ago
I should stand? Why? I am respecting every person who has ever died for this country in the simple act of refusing to stand. I am ironically standing up for my rights, my liberties, and the freedom that those soldiers died to give me. They died to give me these rights. I am respecting them by using these rights that they died to defend.
1.) I didn't care what people thought of me
2.) I was already an outcast.
And most importantly 3.) I preferred to do what I feel I am morally obligated to do regardless of what people will think of me. Almost nobody, if anybody, in my class knew it wasn't mandatory until they saw me sit down silently and a teacher attempt to force me. It's important to make an example for others. To know that you don't have to do something and that you aren't alone...
As for the simple manner of patriotism, I am far from someone who respects and loves their contry. A country isn't just imaginary lines. It's a foundation of how you can live, what you can do, and the opinions of its leaders. I am ashamed of my country for what is has done, what it is doing, and what it will do. I don't like the state it is in nor what it represents. It wouldn't be too far a stretch to call the USA the worst first world country. I have faith in humanity and in the people of the United States. But just as a mother loves all her children, she cannot help but feel saddened and ashamed by the path her child has chosen.
"Honor the Texas flag; I pledge allegiance to thee, Texas, one state under God, one and indivisible." Note: The "one state under God" was only added in June 15, 2007. A rather late addition as the United States officially, and arguably illegally, added the same phrase to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954.
Free speech is based on tolerance and the weird thing about tolerance is, that it always has to be intolerant against intolerance. That's what people forgot.
But beside that, my post has nothing to do with any Nazi-sh*t, it is about the general concept of nationalism, which never has led to anything but ostracism, violence and war.
But those who don't learn from history...
Also, my youngest is in first grade and I volunteer at his school a lot. When I’m there if they say the pledge I stand but I don’t say it- The kids don’t notice. It’s an age appropriate kind of conversation. My 10yr old has noticed that some of her darker skinned friends have had issues that she hasn’t and we’ve had the inequality talk with her. She stands now but doesn’t say it. As she’s put it “why would I pledge support to a country that hurts my friends’ family?” It was a big decision for her and she knew she could get sent to the office but she also knew she had my full support on her decision.
Kids learn things when they’re young. Doesn’t mean they’re the right thing to learn just because it’s been done for years before.