Yeah. It’s a sort of “temporal mechanics” thing. Even if we distill time to a singular chain of events and say that there are no “alternate realities” and that each decisions happens or doesn’t, and what has happened is, what could have happened isn’t:
Simply put the nature preferred for God and most “almighty god(s)” is a being which is eternal and all knowing. In technology speak- a quantum computer. The computer exists in the future and can send data to itself in the past based on the future. Therefore the moment the computer is made- it can already “know” all that happens in its lifespan. If the computer were “eternal” and “omnipotent” then it could see and know all things in all places at all times. While just theory- scientific theory does support the idea that such a thing could be possible for a machine humans could possibly build. So it would seem sound logic that a “god” could be capable of such things.
From the perspective of the observer, and where the observer knows the outcome- there doesn’t appear to be “choice.” Go watch a movie you’ve seen before. Perhaps Something like a wedding video? No matter how many times you watch it- the Groom or Bride will always respond the same way when asked if they “do.” Does that mean that those people in that moment had no choice? From your perspective in the future it’s a forgone conclusion they say what they say. Perhaps your parents? The fact you exist might be proof enough that it’s a foregone conclusion they didn’t leave each other never to speak again the moment they met. But in that moment did they not have a choice?
And perhaps they didn’t. The universe can be quantified mathematically. The only things we cannot mathematically predict are those things which we lack the data or the processing to quantify. An “omnipotent” being wouldn’t have this problem- or a suitably advanced technology. So from a data set of genetics, life experiences, stimulus- a sufficiently advanced system could theoretically predict the outcome of an event with what is tantamount to certainty without having experienced the event before hand.
So what’s being discussed is all theoretically possibly- it’s simply that we lack the technical ability to describe HOW exactly. If we COULD- well, then we would essentially have the power of a “god” wouldn’t we? Then doesn’t it become self fulfilling prophecy- where perhaps “god” is merely the name humans give to more advanced humans who have made these theories reality? From that vantage- the events which occur now would be just as “set” to them as would be watching an old video to you or your parents meeting to you wouldn’t it? The future of humanity wouldn’t exist in the state it ends up in if the preceding events didn’t follow reliably would it?
But just as humans aren't forced to create a quantum computer, God was never forced to create humans. If you knew a quantum computer was going to turn into skynet and wipe humanity out, and you did it anyway, is it skynet's fault or yours?
Furthermore, if you were responsible for the existence of every single atom floating around, if you always knew exactly what was going to happen to every single thing you created, would you still bother creating them to watch them play out what you already knew was going to happen? Wouldn't you create things specifically that weren't under your control, since at that point you're basically just keeping yourself busy?
That’s one of those great big questions without an answer isn’t it? Why? Why any of it? No one knows. Asking what a god thinks or why they do anything is like an ant to describe what a human is thinking or feeling. Again- we can apply science. If we view a “god” as an extra dimensional or highly evolved being- even as an “alien” being- current theory is that we might not be able to understand or communicate with such a being- we might have already seen alien life and not recognized it as it is so alien to us.
When we start talking about extra dimensional beings- like the type who from our perspective would seem to be able to move freely through time, live forever, be here before and after our universe etc- we have nothing but theory. We can’t really even confirm the existence of other dimensions although our fundamental understanding of reality relies on dimensional theory as an anchor. So speculation abounds about the laws of other dimensional space, what if any interaction such spaces would have etc.
If a god were such a being- we wouldn’t even have any idea what they see. The universe to them would be incomprehensible to us. Foreign beyond reason. Likely the laws of physics and reality as we understand them would be invalid in such a space. Likely, and to our best knowledge- we lack the senses let alone the mental ability to even consciously relate to another dimension. So “Why?” Is the eternal question and, as with the earlier points- if there were god(s) and we had the capacity to answer for their motives and methods- we would have to be god(s) too.
Lmao. It also goes further than that, as if God were all-knowing, he created Lucifer knowing he'd fall... so getting pissed at him over the fall is an even dicker move.
Perhaps. But- “god has a plan.” That’s the line. So we must ask more important questions. In that sense- we could perhaps assume that the universe is a machine- perhaps even a Rube Goldberg machine. A complex series of events of which the creator has predicted the outcomes, and upon completion of its machinations will produce a desired result. What is the desired result? Who knows. I have another comment on that but let’s just say that understanding the mind of a god would be like an ant trying to understand you.
I mean, if you put a cookie on the table and tell your kid not to eat it, and you leave the room knowing they're going to eat it, that doesn't mean you don't chastise them for ignoring what you said
Now- there could be a possibility that an “all powerful” deity wasn’t “all powerful” but just so very powerful as to seem “all powerful” to lesser advanced beings. In that case- it makes perfect sense. If you could see the future wouldn’t you likely manipulate it to produce the outcomes you wanted? Much like Dr. strange viewing many thousands of possible outcomes and deciding upon one?
If such a deity is “all powerful” then why? Again- who knows. But- perhaps choice is the point. If you give your best friend a lunch choice of turd sandwich or their favorite dish- you can generally know which they will chose with almost 100% certainty. Does knowing the choice take away the fact that they chose? What growth is there for a perfect and all powerful being? None. But for flawed and imperfect beings- well.... lots of opportunity to grow. Satan fell as god knew Satan would. But- god forgives all, loves all no? They must repent. Satan is unrepentant. Revelations prophesies the “end of days” right? So we know- right up until then- Stan doesn’t repent. Ever- because Satan plays in the end of days yes?
But what happens AFTER? That isn’t there is it? It can’t really be the “end” in religious context can it? By said context god is eternal. Beginning and end, infinite. So (spoiler alert) god survives Armageddon. But... what happens next isn’t told. You know what else is supposedly immortal? The human soul. So here we have “the end” where all the “good” souls fight for god and all the “wicked” fight against... and then....
Blank. What happens to these souls? The “bad” ones? Super hell? Back to hell? Does it repeat? Or maybe... that’s it. Perhaps this is all one big and complicated circle that has a happy ending? See- genesis says humans got kicked out of Eden for being “naughty.” Paradise isn’t paradise of the jerk next to you doesn’t follow the rules is it? If we were in Eden right now would it matter? Most people don’t think this is “perfect paradise” and why? Because even without disease and free from suffering in nature and free from need- humans as we are would bring suffering of our own no? Even Satan- an angelic (or demonic) being and the like can’t behave and let there e paradise can they?
So what if it’s all about choice and learning. Learning that doing things this way sucks. Satan thinks he can beat an “all powerful” god when his loss has already happened. That’s ballsy no? You do t just sit that guy down and explain it to him do you? He’s gotta learn the hard way. We all gotta learn the hard way it seems. So perhaps after the “end” everyone learns their valuable lesson. Perhaps that’s where all the “wicked” including Satan finally repent and all imperial souls can finally coexist as equals by choice?
Because I can’t say why- but we keep coming back to choice don’t we? An “all powerful” being could force anyone to just do and think what it wants no? An “all powerful” creator could have made all beings so they were already “perfect” and would do as the creator wanted no? So IF we assume the “all powerful” and all that- it seems for whatever reason it’s important that we CHOOSE to do “right” as opposed to being forced.
While again- trying to understand an omnipotent all swing being is futile- if we can relate it in any way that we can understand, would it be the same thing to have a wife or child that loves you- or who you force to act like they love you? To have them care about what you want and tend your needs, or use violence or drugs or control to make them do it from fear or enthrallment etc? In our human minds we can understand that concept at least. It seems self evident that choice is preferable to forced compliance. I got one would be skeeved out knowing my partner or friend had been engineered specifically to serve my needs and would never waiver in their devotion no matter what because they were literally incapable of doing so.
If we assume the “all powerful” stuff is exaggeration- then it seems obvious that not only might such control be out of the scope of abilities of such a being- but that perhaps, much as even the simplest machines is humans make can malfunction or behave undesirable or unpredictably- that perhaps machines as complex as us might do so as well. It’s entirely reasonable and logical using assumption or a relatively face value interpretation of religious dogma to conclude these things.
All your past decision's have made you who you are. Who you are in this and each moment of your life can only come to one decision. By knowing every decision made by everyone in the past, one such as God could determine the future, but it is still you making the decision under your own free will.
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· 5 years ago
Ye we talked about this in philosophy, the concept is called determinism. This is a sub argument, for atheists it’s like “everything, every motion and thought is caused by something. And all these factors will cause what happens in the future. Thus the future is already determined and we lack free will.” It ties into metaphysics since freedom would then just be an illusion.
So this is how i look at it or how i feel about it.
God knows all the outcomes of tomorrow, meaning life has many paths and eaxh path has a destination, his word and pastors teach you to follow the right way so that you have an expected end. So if you choose his way, his path leads to salvation while the other ones does not. So its like you have a deck of cards (1,3, 5, 9), he wants you to get a 6, so he tells you to chose a 1 and a 5.
I like how that omnipotent alien in MIB3 saw it: that there are infinite possibilities that will happen based on x event in a butterfly effect sort of way. God “knows” what you’re going to do, but not which you’re going to do.
Perhaps. It is generally best for humans anyway, to always set up any situation so we can’t lose. So regardless of the outcome if you’ve anticipated properly then you win regardless- and if your purpose is goal oriented then it’s the completion of a goal within certain criteria you’ve set which matters, not every single aspect of how you get there. From our vantage point a person who is prepared for every contingency before it occurred would seek omnipotent. They might be occasionally surprised but we would never know it.
Einstein was quoted as saying “God doesn’t play dice with the universe.” Now- he wasn’t speaking of an actual god but a metaphorical one. His clear meaning (which he himself confirmed,) was that there are underlying laws- cause and effect- for everything. Even that which we cannot clearly see or understand the logic to follows some sort of logic.
A system is defined by rules. If you know these rules completely then you know how a system will behave for any given input. If you know what an input will be, you already know what the output will be. Therefore- if you know how the universe works, and you know what a person does, you’ll know what will happen next even if you don’t know what they will do before they do it. A smart designer makes a system which does two things: 1. As much as practical it prevents the user from giving an input that isn’t desired.
2. It is designed so that if a user makes an undesired input- the system still functions and provides a desired output.
In other words- think of a traditional mass market commercial video game. If the designer doesn’t want you to get a game over- they can easily make it so no matter what you do- you won’t. If they don’t want you to win they can do that to. Even in an “open world” game- If they want to make it so you have to talk to a certain NPC or that no matter what choices you make out of thousands that you end up in the same place- like mass effect. Unless they made a mistake or failed to anticipate an action the player could take- or unless you have the ability to modify the “laws” of that universe- they can create a situation where no matter what you choose everything will end up where they want it.
God knows all the outcomes of tomorrow, meaning life has many paths and eaxh path has a destination, his word and pastors teach you to follow the right way so that you have an expected end. So if you choose his way, his path leads to salvation while the other ones does not. So its like you have a deck of cards (1,3, 5, 9), he wants you to get a 6, so he tells you to chose a 1 and a 5.
2. It is designed so that if a user makes an undesired input- the system still functions and provides a desired output.