Whataboutism is always a code for "I don't have an argument but simply can't just shut the fuck up". Not many africans enslaved by africans ended up in european colonies or in the usa, just saying. Also europeans of those times had pretty specific ethical concepts, different from those of african tribes.
No I was referring to everyone in the present and future. We shouldn't, no one shouldn't be shamed or accused for the actions of those that came before us. It wasn't us it wasn't our actions that caused any of that to happen. We have learned through history to make things better it isn't perfect but it is a working progress. Instead of pointing fingers and dwelling of what happened let us look forward and work together as one into creating something better for all of us.
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Wonder if they know that many Africans also enslaved each other and also helped both the European and the Arabic slave trades?
Oh and also DNA tests can help reveal ancestry.
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I mean, Larry's just saying he doesn't know his specific ethnicity because of these conditions, he's not attacking anyone here
AND that would only apply as “coming at” a person who is a European colonizer- in which case, truth is defense against slander. He never accused anyone of being a European colonizer, but nothing he said is not factual.
Well.... partial truth to the last line. He may not be able to bring food representing his DISTANT ethnic heritage, but ethnicity is a cultural identity and not a nationality, ethnicity can be fluid, with even a generation of separation being enough to separate “ethnicity.” Many “traditions” we know in the West didn’t exist when our parents were born and only emerged within the last lifetime for instance. So ethnicity is more about the traditions and customs of the group you socially identify with- so he DOES have knowledge of his current culture identity as well as likely at the least his parents.
Newsflash.... there's a point if you go back with anyone where that happens. Show me an ancestor from 25,000 years ago and I'll retract that. Cultures adapt, just like people.
see to be honest, i did google it, trying to see how long ago he existed, but it just gave me a year and I'm honestly too lazy to do math, so i rolled the dice and hoped it'd work.
Ironically, I'm pretty sure that more Africans were enslaved, raped and murdered at the hands of Americans than Europeans, and that the OP is just excusing himself for not doing his homework...
Look I don't wanna sound unsympathetic to the plight of the African peoples of which I don't know much about, but I think it'd be much more fruitful to get an ancestry test and reclaim one's cultural/ethnic identity than to complain about a thing that happened centuries ago.
The note says West Africans so he probably has a general idea already. And if you wanna say "well he's not in contact with his ancestors and he'd be an outsider to the identity he'd try to reclaim", aren't we all? Culture, ethnicity, nation, they're all made up concepts that we're socialized into. It's never too late to rediscover it if you want to. But don't just put on rose-colored glasses and jump in, that's how nationalism starts, there are good and bad parts to every culture's history, so if you wanna get really engaged, study it too.
Here’s the thing about the DNA tests. They even tell you before purchasing that there are very little samples from Africa. There might be more now. But, I don’t think just getting a DNA test that will tell you that your ancestors hailed from Africa is worth the 80 bucks. If you’re black, you know your ancestors are from Africa. However, the DNA test may not be able to narrow down where you’re actually from.
And the slave trade to America was mostly from West Africa, so it’s not very hard to figure that out.
All that said. I think the whole note is stupid. Especially since African American culture is a thing. And there are foods associated with that culture he could have brought.
Yes. The best tests can give you a REGION that your ancestors are LIKELY from- but that gets tricky too. Africa is made up of many, many, distinct ethnic groups and tribes, many which no longer actually exist. It’s a tad like saying a person is “Native American” or “South American.” But.. which tribe? Even if we narrow it down “north, east, west...” we are talking about distinctly different people with their own traditions and ways and even languages.
On the subject of African American culture- I have mixed feelings about that. There is a unique African American culture that exists, and has existed long enough to have its own cuisine and customs- to be considered its own ethnicity. However- these sorts of “cultural cuisine” things aren’t usually meant to be so literal. For most Americans, unless you have parents or grandparents from “the old country,” and home cooked family meals- there are good odds that the “cuisine of your culture” is the same crap everyone else ate growing up.
But The intent isn’t for John in accounting to bring a pot roast and Sally to bring some hot pockets and Rick to bring KFC because those were the meals that were part of their culture growing up. John, who’s 16 generations removed from Germany, doesn’t speak German, never been there, would stick out like a sore thumb there, and has no living direct relatives there is going to bring Strudel or something basic and “German,” not a green bean casserole. So I mean- there is validity in making the connection to distant cultural roots based in genetic origin to the event- even if the person isn’t immersed or doesn’t participate in that culture.
Hmm, you guys make a good point about the ethnicity tests. Africa is made up of so many tribes that dividing it into countries as the colonial powers did messed up a lot of things because it forced warring tribes to be in one country while separating other tribes. So it might not actually be accurate, I didn't realize that. I also agree with guest_'s point about cultures, the US is a land of immigrants, of course the descendants of Irish immigrants probably don't speak Gaelic and don't know a lot of the history or traditions. But that doesn't mean they can't try to immerse themselves in the culture.
I dislike this trend of accusing people of cultural appropriation. Cultures are beautiful and we shouldn't try to stop people from celebrating them, whether they have a genetic connection to said culture or not. I watched some YouTube videos in which people did ancestry tests,
and sometimes they're so heartbroken because they thought they had ancestors in some place granny told them about, and they found out they didn't (again it might just be due to the inaccuracy of the test itself). So really cultural identity is something in your brain, not your genes, and I think you should be able to celebrate a culture without being perceived as offensive.
I by and large agree- but there is nuance. “Cultural appropriation” is used as a negative word. The thing is though that cultures which share proximity tend to mix together. You’ll find dishes in the traditional cuisine of almost all peoples from foreign and often “enemy” cultures. Most cultures today are products of such mixing- and if such mixing doesn’t occur it tends to lead to either hostile isolation and supremacy issues or the destruction of a culture and replacement with another. When a Hispanic person and an East Asian person marry and have kids- the customs, meals, holidays, language, etc. of the home become a blend and compromise. Such children generally grow up in a blended culture.
This is natural. When a movie is made that people like- they will imitate it. It doesn’t mater if it’s from Cincinnati or Mars. It makes certain styles and themes popular. But there are some lines there. Thinking some religious or otherwise significant matter of culture “looks cool” or “has a good story” and deciding to use it in a completely inappropriate context to the cultural origin is disrespectful. There might be prohibitions and matters of care within a culture surrounding a thing that a borrower” doesn’t respect and that causes friction.
Usually such diffusion is a natural part of the participation of a culture inna society, so the evolution is organic and smooth. The problematic type of diffusion is where a group or its culture is largely decried by mainstream society and its members are outcast- but elements of their identity are taken. “We just want the hair style- not you.”
Soul food is a variety of cuisine originating in the Southeastern United States, and from African American culture. It has both European and Native American influences. It is common in areas with a historical presence of African Americans and has been a cultural staple among the African American and American Deep-South communities for centuries. The expression "soul food" originated in the mid-1960s, when "soul" was a common word used to describe African American culture. A typical soul food meal would feature:
Sides: black-eyed peas, candied yams (dark-fleshed sweet potatoes), macaroni and cheese, and stewed greens (cabbage, collard greens, kale, mustard, or turnip)
Entree: chicken (fried or smothered), fried fish, or pork (smothered chop or "chitlins," which are pig intestines)
Well- we can split hairs but let’s say “leading contributors.” As there are more factors to obesity than impulse control or laziness- but diet alone also doesn’t cause obesity. A combination of factors- diet being a large one, all contribute to obesity. But a diet high in fats and calories and sugars, simple carbs etc. is a diet that can very easily lead to obesity if one isn’t extremely diligent. So we can say that a cultures traditional diet can be a strong contribution to overall health of those within said culture.
I would say food deserts are probably a leading contribution to obesity especially in the specific communities we are talking about. “A food desert is an area that has limited access to affordable and nutritious food, in contrast with an area with higher access to supermarkets or vegetable shops with fresh foods”. Poor neighborhood are usually food deserts which lack accessible grocery stores, in which fast food is often the replacement. This correlates obesity with poverty because of the lack of access and affordability whenever there are supermarkets. African Americans and Latinos usually are the poor demographic, which may be the reason why you correlated “soul food” with obesity. Soul food stems out of the tradition of slaves using whatever they could to make delicious meals. As we know, former slaves and their families could not easily escape poverty because of the disadvantages they unfairly face in the US. So therefore, these communities may not be obese because of
I’d agree largely with your well informed insights- but would still maintain that such food deserts are a contributing factor but not a cause alone. The strains of work and family life can also contribute- where people may not have the time or energy to feel able to get activity. Certain taboos fan also exist that see a person trying to better themselves as perceived as thinking they are better then their peers, and as a rising tide may raise all ships, a sinking ship can take others with it. Often times in any community, those who don’t want to change or feel they cannot benefit from change will sabotage or discourage such actions in others to avoid confronting their own issues or being made to feel inferior through stagnation while another “rises.”
Giving people access to fresh foods and healthy diets they can afford and are convenient is a huge benefit, but only IF they decide to take it, and only IF they exercise sensibility. The difference between 3,000 calories of fudge and 3,000 calories of carrots has very little impact on obesity even if it does effect overall health. The portion size and method of preparation of a side of potatoes determines if they are a healthy and nutritious addition to a meal, or “junk food,” with fried potato generally being less “healthy” than a quarter of a baked potato with the skin and little or no toppings.
So while access to healthy foods certainly is a good thing and we should be mindful of food deserts and other challenges to many communities- tradition can often supercede such concerns to the point where one turns away from healthier portions and options. Healthy eating can be an acquired taste and fighting obesity is generally a lifestyle change that requires more than just access but psychological needs be addressed. Food can have powerful emotional and social influence on people. Also of note- if you become used to highly processed foods, salty and fatty foods through long term regular consumption- not only can those foods be associated with memories and emotions, but you can find “healthier” and more “whole” foods repulsive in taste or texture.
Oh and also DNA tests can help reveal ancestry.
The note says West Africans so he probably has a general idea already. And if you wanna say "well he's not in contact with his ancestors and he'd be an outsider to the identity he'd try to reclaim", aren't we all? Culture, ethnicity, nation, they're all made up concepts that we're socialized into. It's never too late to rediscover it if you want to. But don't just put on rose-colored glasses and jump in, that's how nationalism starts, there are good and bad parts to every culture's history, so if you wanna get really engaged, study it too.
And the slave trade to America was mostly from West Africa, so it’s not very hard to figure that out.
All that said. I think the whole note is stupid. Especially since African American culture is a thing. And there are foods associated with that culture he could have brought.
I dislike this trend of accusing people of cultural appropriation. Cultures are beautiful and we shouldn't try to stop people from celebrating them, whether they have a genetic connection to said culture or not. I watched some YouTube videos in which people did ancestry tests,
Sides: black-eyed peas, candied yams (dark-fleshed sweet potatoes), macaroni and cheese, and stewed greens (cabbage, collard greens, kale, mustard, or turnip)
Entree: chicken (fried or smothered), fried fish, or pork (smothered chop or "chitlins," which are pig intestines)