Both are drunk and responsible for their actions, yet decision making is impaired, which is why trusting "yes i want to do this" is more difficult when drunk and it's much easier to say consent was not achieved because neither party was of able mind to consent. I think what this ignores is the dynamic. Maybe both parties are going for it which is great because it makes it easier to say that they consented. If one party is trying to convince the other party, then it's harder to say the consent was achieved. Ideally you'd want to be doing it where both parties want to and not trying to convince them. by trying to convince someone it becomes easier to at the least have persuasion be misinterpreted as coercion and once its coercion its easier to argue that rape happened.
Please discuss, it's good to have conversations about what consent means, and what happens when sex strays from the ideal of both parties being up for it.
I hate the whole "too drunk to consent" bs.
You are responsible for your own actions, drunk or not.
That mentality works with anything else besides sex, I don't see why sex should be any different.
If I get a telemarketing call about my car's extended warranty, and I'm drunk, so I agree to everything... Can I call the next day and say I was "too drunk to consent"?
Now, if you're drunk and attempting to refuse, but the other person is forcing the issue, that's a different story.
Agreed.
But a drunk yes is still a yes. Just like a drunk no is still a no.
Sex is literally the only thing where this is a grey area, and it annoys the hell out of me.
Caveat to my response: this may or may not reflect my beliefs, but is rather a highlight of the psychology present during the investigation of purported rape vs drunk sex: Because rape is so emotionally devastating, it’s much more likely that the woman’s side would be taken over the man’s, even if his memory served him better. I live in Wisconsin, which is basically the drunkest state in the USA, and I have witnessed not only with drinking, but with drugs as well, that if a woman cannot recall consenting (even of she had consented), she is likely to believe she was raped. The man may recall perfectly that she said, “yes” to every advance, but because of the culture surrounding rape and it’s known emotional effects, society is much more keen on taking the woman’s side. The thing is, they would rather have a chance of seeing justice for the woman than a taking the chance of saying she wasn’t raped. So, almost without question, the man is charged. There is not much to fight...
...In that situation, as Wisconsin courts have a history of favoring women. As well, even if the woman is crying wolf, her friends are much more likely to take her side, and even conjure evidence of memory, even though they weren’t present (such as: the man was “always hanging around and being creepy”). It’s a defense for the friend, and why wouldn’t that be a natural response? So, the psychology that society takes to heart is that of possible protection of the woman; that is, if she can be protected, she should be. Because of this, although seemingly ridiculous, it is wise to have third-parties for both sides to confirm that the two have consented. If proper care isn’t taken, a man can be accused of rape at any time of intercourse. Believe me, I’ve known many girls in high school that claimed rape, and talked casually about it as if recalling a warm, summer memory. Regardless of that falsity, the man should alway take precaution. The question “should we blindly believe a woman’s...
...Accusation?” Becomes clear based on the actions of society: a resounding YES. The man must then have substantial evidence at the ready to prove he is innocent. This is not to say women ALWAYS receive justice, as they most certainly do not (refer to cases such as: Brock Turner). It’s an incredibly fickle situation, societal-wise, and that’s why it’s a grey area. Who is really to say what happened between two people that were drunk, and have memory lapse? It is definitely not as easy of a decision as wanting to return something that you had bought drunk, and now regret purchasing said item. People’s livelihoods are at stake, and thus, the accusation must be taken seriously. Too many women live in absolute paralyzing fear that their rapists will never face judgement. Too many women stay silent. The number of men who have been falsely accused is most likely, far fewer than women who have not seen justice for their infinite pain. That’s just how it is, here at least.
That is an excellent assessment. I think should take it one step further and examine why consent is seemingly more important to women than men. I believe it is in large part that we, as a society, teach women that their virtue is something to be protected and allowing it to be impugned too easily lowers their worth as a person. We do not encourage women to seek the same rich sex life as we do men. A woman who decides to have sex and then regrets it has a hard time just brushing it off as a minor mistake because it can damage her self-image.
Of course, this doesn’t apply to the aggravated assault situations or being drugged unknowingly, more the “buyer’s remorse” scenario.
Oh, absolutely. I mean, we could take this beyond to all kinds of rape (men on men, women on men, adult on child...), and how each category is treated differently in society, but I just would be typing 11 pages and taking up comment space. That’s why I chose to stick with a direct response to some of the comments, but absolutely, you raise valid points. I think in particular, sticking with the “flavor” of the post, if you will, women are always in a state of duality based on pressure...not to say that men aren’t, but just in a different way. No matter how a woman sees herself, society will always push negativity on her. That could relate to self-image, decisions, etc. just as you said. I think the belief that women are weaker than men is enough in numbers for many to believe it to be true. Even if you say, “men are naturally stronger than women”, there is still strategy and focus that can be taught to fend off an unwanted advance. Imagine if all women were taught to view themselves...
...As strong entities: I bet rape would be far less of a problem. Psychology can make or break walls, and right now, society is still generally in the “wall” phase...that is, protecting women, because they are taught to be prissy. Every woman has the potential to fight, but only some truly believe they are strong enough to do it...and that’s a shame. Edit: It is only fair to mention the fact that men remain silent—due to stigma—is also a shame. I’m only trying to remain within the confines of the original topic.
If I get a telemarketing call about my car's extended warranty, and I'm drunk, so I agree to everything... Can I call the next day and say I was "too drunk to consent"? Actually yes you can.
Correct. It can be forced. The problem of consent lies in lack of witnesses. One could argue rape against the other, possibly without contest, just out of hearsay. Again, this is why consent is such a touchy thing...there’s not really an umbrella solution. You have to trust the other person, or go to extreme measures. Eventually, I think a certain extension of technology will allow for certainty in a conclusion. Until then, a signed form is not enough to protect either party effectively.
Liberty Memes is a bunch of wingnuts that manufactures this kind of crap. The poster is from Coastal Carolina University, which distributed it briefly over 10 years ago, figured out that it didn't make sense, and stopped. But now it lives on, since idiots need something to feel superior to.
Just over 5 years ago now, I was in the military, and let me tell you...
We had quarterly, if not monthly, sexual assault prevention training, and it all felt like this poster.
If the woman is at all drunk, or even tipsy, its basically rape.
It doesn't matter how much the dude had to drink, or any sort of details about the situation, females + alcohol = rape.
This particular poster may be old, but I can confirm that at least in recent history, this attitude still exists
Please discuss, it's good to have conversations about what consent means, and what happens when sex strays from the ideal of both parties being up for it.
You are responsible for your own actions, drunk or not.
That mentality works with anything else besides sex, I don't see why sex should be any different.
If I get a telemarketing call about my car's extended warranty, and I'm drunk, so I agree to everything... Can I call the next day and say I was "too drunk to consent"?
Now, if you're drunk and attempting to refuse, but the other person is forcing the issue, that's a different story.
But a drunk yes is still a yes. Just like a drunk no is still a no.
Sex is literally the only thing where this is a grey area, and it annoys the hell out of me.
Of course, this doesn’t apply to the aggravated assault situations or being drugged unknowingly, more the “buyer’s remorse” scenario.
We had quarterly, if not monthly, sexual assault prevention training, and it all felt like this poster.
If the woman is at all drunk, or even tipsy, its basically rape.
It doesn't matter how much the dude had to drink, or any sort of details about the situation, females + alcohol = rape.
This particular poster may be old, but I can confirm that at least in recent history, this attitude still exists