Ok so when Americans go to the doctor it isnt free got it
But we get shit others don’t:
The right to choose our doctors
The right to decide to keep people on life support
Less taxes
Not be forced to buy or pay for certain health insurance we can pick our own or to not have one
We can walk out of a hospital and not be arrested for refusing treatment
We can check ourselves in and out of psych wards
Our doctors are better because they are paid better
We get the right to choose what treatment we want
We have religious rights when it comes to health treatments
And there is so many more things that we get that others don’t
So yeah keep blowing your horn how you don’t pay when you get more taxes taken than we do
For a doctor you didn’t even use the whole year
While we sit here only paying when we need to.
Yet some how still have people coming from around the world to our doctors looking for help
see.... there it is. Less taxes, more insurance. If we can import drugs, give the federal government negotiation abilities, and end pile monopolies in regional areas we can make all those taxes less than the insurance with ALL those benefits.
And AGAIN. It's in the fucking Constitution: PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE. FOR FUCKS' SAKE HOW CLEARER CAN THAT GET?! The idea of socialism didn't exist when that was written, and insurance was sketchy, at best. Insurance was more like turning to the mafia; which is why the job was tasked to the fucking government when it was formed.
less taxes? you still pay the freaking same taxes, it's just go to other things (likely military) then an affordable healthcare that work for the poor and the working class
Even developing countries (like VN where i am) have a decent healthcare syterm where people won't go in debt for breaking an arm or leg.
Isn't it better to pay 1/10 of your monthy paycheck (let say $200-300) for a whole year of healthcare (regular checkups, medicine for common cold, fever, injuries, etc)
Than accidentally get ill or break an arm or just call an ambulance to end up paying thousands?
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Not to mention, noone forces you to sign up for affordable healthcare, it's not how it works, you can stick to your ridicilously expesnive healthcare that charge $300 for insulin
but the people, the poor, the working class, the essential workers that face death everyday NEEDS it.
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Paying Taxes isn't just paying for what you use, it's your duty to give back and contribution to build a better society for everyone.
Europe is 4th in paying doctors
They pay around half of what our doctors get. And didn’t it make big news in Europe just a few years ago a family had to FIGHT THE COURTS to keep their son on life support and they lost?!
And not to mention America does have a health care plan for the poor.
It goes by different names in each state
Here in California it is Medical in Texas it’s called Texas Medicaid
But boils down to same stuff free medicine, free ER, free Doctor appointments, free EMS, and so on.
You just have to be under a certain salary as in poor. Lower class and under.
And yes that is out of our taxes
The wealthy can afford to pay for health care.
The rest can afford insurance and those who can’t those who fall between the line of government help and having to pay on their own well truth is there is organizations plus help services to help and go fund me.
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· 4 years ago
It's not because our doctors are not paid as much as yours that they're bad. And the case about life support that you're referring to happened in France, my country. It was about a guy that had a car accident and was in a vegetative state for a decade. No one had to fight the courts to keep him on life support. It was his family that was fighting each others as his spouse wanted him off the support but his parents wanted to keep him on. The parents won the case against the wife so they kept him on. Check your facts before saying stuff you don't know about. If I was to go about your silly reasoning then in that case I can also say that we have stuff that you don't have. We have free and legal abortion, women can have their tubes tied if they don't want children without having to have an authorisation from anyone or the doctors refusing to do it. We have the right to euthanasia and assisted suicide. I can go to ANY country in Europe and have the same FREE service.And I can go on and on..
i am just sick and tired of other countries thinking they know better when WE KEEP BAILING THEM OUT OF EVERYTHING!
PLUS
We are the 2nd richest country Switzerland being first
Yeah we are 7th in recycling but we are climbing America invited the straw thing about saving the turtles
Canada produces the most waste
We are 2nd with best schools
Honestly the list goes on how we out rank other countries but no all I ever hear is
My CoUnTrY hAs FrEe HeAlTh CaRe!
(cue spongebob meme)
@mikriarktos I am referring to the case of baby Charlie Gard
Not a family dispute. This was parents against doctors.
AND THE FAMILY AFTER LOSING TRIED TO RAISE MONEY TO COME TO THE USA WHERE THEY KNEW THEIR SON BE TREATED RIGHT!!!
So check your facts Jack!
I think the argument lies in your claim that the US has things that other countries don't (see list in your first comment), while, in fact, all those rights and choices are commonplace and exist outside the US. I am not sure how recycling, schools and waste got into the mix, as I don't think this is an argument of which country is better overall, and not all countries are of the same size to be easily comparable.
But here is the thing majority of people always go straight to well I hear America has no FREE heath care and truth is I am sick of hearing it. We have what we have for our own reasons.
We all vote and the majority picks that is how we live.
Other countries have a vote and some don’t but basically in the end they just bow their heads and take what is given to them.
Every day we have people fighting for better rights NOT because what we have HELPS NO ONE but because they hat we have DOESN’T HELP EVERYONE! And so we work to make each day better.
But each and every fucking country is that spongebob meme
I am sick of it!
It’s like when I tell people I am dyslexic they go O YOU READ LETTERS BACKWARDS?
No fucker I don’t!
I just think each country should stick to their own politics and their own rights and if you need help don’t spit on the hand that feeds you!
There will always put one country above the others but to constantly make us the joke I am sick of it
That's all perfectly reasonable, as not all countries are the same or have the same capacities. And just because US (or any other country's) politics or healthcare or rights do not directly affect a European (for example), that doesn't mean people can't have an opinion based on personal experience, personal beliefs, or facts they are aware of. And vice versa, of course. It's just that the things mentioned above are not exclusive to the US and they can easily be found elsewhere.
I am going to go ahead and stop here I just am getting WAY to heated over this lol and honestly that’s not the type of person I am.
I have just been and a huge fight today with a relative and honestly I think I carried my anger to here.
So I am going to leave it at this:
No one is right no one is wrong but what America has is what we have and that is what we as a country have to deal with we fought to be free to make our own choices and we won that right.
Who knows one day we might come to an agreement to be free health care but till that day we are working on what we have and in the end honestly all plans around the world have problems.
No country is perfect and if there is one than that country is empty of human life.
Thank you. We don't want to be like everyone else, we have our own culture, values, and priorities. Those include not being taken care of if it costs liberty and prosperity.
Promote the general welfare, not provide. And there is no country like the US in the world. Anybody can leave and live like everyone else, but there is no place else for those of us who prefer the way we're meant to be.
The right to choose doesn't mean you have to choose the worst system though lol. It always seems like the US is just stubborn - it's not about the health care, or the guns, or socialism or anything, it's about your right to tell people to get fucked when they suggest that there might be a better way
There is a better way: Less government. Their interference and overreach is what made healthcare, guns, medicine, and everything else such a mess in the first place.
We value individual liberty. We killed and died for it, and will do so again if it becomes necessary.
Your arguements sound a lot like "America is great!"
It's only great BC you're not directly suffering from the shitty systems that literary lead people in debt. Many claim to rather call an Uber than an ambulance and you don't think that's a problem?
The second richest country in the world? Where the 1% earn more than the combination of the rest 99%? Yea right, that's pretty rich.
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You're not fighting for people, you don't give a damn about the people with lower/average income who work 8 hours per day, 5 days per week who desperately need a healthcare system that work.
What's the point of being the second richest country with high quality medical systems when most people cant afford it???
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You only speak like this BC you have the privilege to do so.
There are thousands people out there, even your own neighbors that don't have such privilege.
Would it be so hard to stop for a second and think "this works for me but does it work for others?", Is it that hard?
I already told you what the problem is. We do not need or want to be like everyone, we need Uncle Sam out of our way. Government isn't mommy and daddy, it ain't their job to take care of us, and we don't want them to.
Maybe if your government does its job more properly, and people like you let them
Even tho you call it "mommy and daddy"
Or maybe you and you people aren't so stuck up about your "freedom" and not "being like everyone else", then the number of deaths due to Covid wouldn't be so highest.
The "greatest" country with the highest deaths, how ironic.
It ain't their job to do. We do not want them to even try, because everything the feds touch always turns to absolute shit, until they are cut down to size after decades of incompetence. You think our numbers are bad now? Because Trump wasn't fascist enough? It only would've been worse if they tried.
Okay, thanks for clarifying.
It'll be hard to believe, but I mean this with no disrespect: you sound like a crazy person to me, this time. I know you're intelligent and articulate, but sometimes the conclusions you reach (Michigan Murders the Elderly!), and the assumptions you base them on, are absurd on their face to me. The rate of Covid deaths in the States is astronomically higher than just about everywhere, and you maintaining that it was the best possible outcome is just obviously wrong. But the victor writes the history, and you may well be proven right someday.
I don't say any of this with any malice, but I do wonder what it means. I'm intelligent and articulate too, but despite having more or less the same raw materials, we end up almost incomprehensibly far apart in our values - and I'm not sure how to effectively communicate with you, but it continues to feel important that I try.
The state put those infected with an illness primarily harmful to the elderly... in state run elder care facilities.
And our count is inflated. Any death WITH covid is counted as covid in the US. Cancer. Pneumonia. Heart attack. Pulmonary embolism. Gunshot wound. Car wreck.
Here's a tip, ignore the media narrative. They are not honest about anything, even the things that make their bosses look good aren't enough for them.
That's one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read.
You need to fix your country.
And in order to do that, you have to have the guts to admit that it got problems. And it starts with you people.
How is the government trying to help a bad thing and would make things worse? That only means the government is either doing a bad job or the people don't have enough common sense to accept the help provided.
Either way, it's a huge problem.
I'm gonna drop this then get to sleep.
Yes - it's so much easier to hear you when the language isn't so hyped, thank you. But I tell you, I've never been one to believe what I read in the papers - I'm living through the Murdoch Era, remember. You're obviously a deep thinker, what do you make of the observation that anti-intellectualism is on the rise in America's political right?
The US government is not meant to do some things. We do not want that to change. We do have problems, solved by getting the government out business.
We do not want to be taken care of. How many times will I have to tell you?
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Willfree, anti-intelectualism is on the rise, but not on the left or the right. The reason it may appear as such is just because one side is so entirely opposed to entertaining any dissenting thought, or investigating any alternative explanations or solutions. Which side that is, of course, depends on the issue in question.
"We do not want to be taken care of" We hear what you say, it's just bewildering to basically read "Here we just let poor people die and we don't want it to change". So we try to understand and honestly comments like the first one in this thread do not help because they sound like someone yelling "It's better because we get more stuff. Wait we don't? Then it's better because we say it is." Here in Europe we have free health care without negative sides and we also get the advantages mentioned above so we really can't see the appeal of letting people die because it's their own problem.
With that being said, as long as the American governement keeps letting only Americans die it's not our problem here in Europe so we can all keep our own view on the matter and move on with our lives.
Don't lie. We do not let the poor die, and Europe does not have none of the downsides.
That misrepresentation of the entire issue is why I hate Euroes trying to play neo-colonialist and tell us what to do like you're so perfect and enlightened. Pay for your own defense, trade routes, innovation, and see what gets cut first.
No, you as a society simply decided what you like and tolerate. Keep it over there. We are still having that conversation, and we do not need the people's riding our coattails lecturing us on how to be successful.
I never said we were perfect. We're not, that's part of living in the real world, however we're aware of it and we try to get better. You just sound bitter that we apparently tricked America into paying stuff for us, which if it's true doesn't really make you sound successful. But that wasn't even the original point, healthcare isn't about "how to be successful", it's about humanity. We all have different views, good. But lies like those said in the original comment above and weird out of the subject remarks are ruining the debate.
There’s a considerable gap between the people who qualify for state medical programs and people who can afford decent healthcare.
I’m happy for those of you that have such great medical care that you don’t think it’s a need, but talk to some people outside of your regular experience. Talk to some folks working in manual labor in need of back surgery they can’t get because they can’t afford insurance and can’t pay the $30k out of pocket. Or people who will have pain from injuries for the rest of their lives because they couldn’t afford the surgical intervention to properly repair it and had to settle for the ER patch up.
It sounds like you have a really nice thing going and I can see why you wouldn’t want to rock that boat.
So let me ask you, when was the last time you went without important medical care because you couldn’t afford it?
May I ask what kind of medical procedure/care you went without? Perhaps a surgery or treatment of a congenital illness?
Do you feel like you are still suffering today for that lack of treatment, or has the military covered that expense for you now?
Speaking of military, may I ask how much you pay out of pocket for your healthcare premiums/treatment?
My point is that your perspective is from the end of your nose. And while maybe you had a minor procedure you skipped because you couldn’t afford it, you’re not facing the difficulty many of your fellow Americans are.
And you’re fighting against your fellow Americans (because there are plenty of us who agree that the medical system in this country is broken) for something you don’t need and feel entitled to say they shouldn’t have it.
You think your taxes shouldn’t contribute to paying the medical expense of other people, but my taxes contribute to paying for yours. I want that for all my fellow Americans. Even if it means I pay more.
Then pay more yourself. Donate to whoever you please. Keep your hands out of my pockets. And numbnuts, I've been hurt before the army. They weren't there for me then, and now they aren't here when I'm out. Uncle Sam has to take of soldiers that get hurt doing what he tells them to, he has no obligation to everyone else, nor any right to even more of our money to mismanage.
Enough Americans don't want it. Too bad that people are still free to decide as much, huh?
(this comment is just a remark, out of the original topic) A lot of things that have been said here sound like brainwashing but "you give your life and soul to Uncle Sam" takes the cake, it really sounds like people are in a cult. The concept of risking your life to have access to health is also ironic.
Also, you talk a big talk about how great America is and anyone who doesn’t believe just like you should leave and then shit all over anything the government does. Which is it? Do you love or think it is f***ed?
And it’s cute that you think no health care is better than VA care. Really cute. Ever think about doing some work to make that system better for you and your fellow vets? Or is that too much like caring about someone other than yourself?
It is also adorable how you got so angry you had to resort to calling me big bad names like a child. Super cute. ;)
We are great when the government is the hell out of our way. I've never been ambiguous on that.
No healthcare objectively is better for anyone who doesn't have over 50 percent disability. Or it was, before Trump's reforms. I still don't qualify.
And I do care to help other vets. My own time and money. But I have no desire to work for the Feds outside of law enforcement or maybe foreign intelligence.
And I didn't call you a bitch, I said that hypothetically if someone has a condition that the physical doesn't catch and they don't bitch about, then...
Pretty sure “numbnuts” counts as name calling. Even if you don’t even realize you’re doing it.
And, there are lots of conditions a quick physical does catch, like mitral valve defects—even if you don’t bitch about it.
Our governance is what allows the the freedoms you so enjoy. It’s all part of the same system.
The best trick the insurance companies ever pulled on the American populace was convincing them that the cost of healthcare for all would hurt the American people more than it hurt the insurance companies. And you’re so filled up with that story that you can’t believe any thing else even when someone who lives in a place that has these things tells you otherwise.
Autocorrect got me, ngl.
As I've been saying, our system's problem is the government. They are not the solution. They are the problem.
And the government does not allow freedoms, those freedoms allow the government. Do you need an American civics lesson? Those people with their other system do not have a leg up in the discussion. They don't know our system, our government, our history, our culture, or our people, so let's keep the discussion domestic.
Keep telling yourself we're brainwashed, certainly much easier than looking back and seeing that the feds turned the system to shit in the first place by meddling where they shouldn't have.
I recognize that you don’t want everyone to have access to health care. That you think that is a luxury that should only be available to some people. But that is not true of everyone in this country.
That is not what I think at all. Even insinuating as such is an insult I am taking rather personally. Actually, it seems you prefer disparaging over actual conversation. Keep infantilizing and insulting me. That will prove you right.
"They don't know our system, our government, our history, our culture, or our people, so let's keep the discussion domestic."
we know that you/your President claimed to have the best medical system, you know you and your people claimed to be the second richest country in the world, we know you and your people claimed to be the greatest.
and we know you have the highest deaths in this damned pandemic.
@famousone forgive me reviving a dead thread. I was thinking about this today: if the problem is federal government, would you rather go back to unfederated states? 50 separate nations, like a little Europe?
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Aldous Huxley: https://youtu.be/3TQZ-2iMUR0
Gonna have to wait to watch that interview.
Currently I do not want to get rid of the federal government, just for them to be reverted to their enumerated powers and original taxing ability.
The feds are great at doing what they are meant to do, which does not and never included education, retirement, or medicine.
@famousone I apologize for not assuming that your use of “numbnuts” was autocorrect. I think it is fair that I didn’t. And I responded to that.
As far wanting other people to have health care, you argue a pretty strong case against it. And it sounds quite a lot like you don’t want it because you feel like it it is coming from “your pocket.”
You don’t want people from countries where this system is effective to chime in because they don’t know us. But they know universal healthcare. They know healthier populations. They know it can and does work.
If you want everyone to have access to healthcare why are you fighting so hard against the opportunity for them to have it?
I'm not fighting against the opportunity. I'm fighting against the notion that the feds can or should be involved. Because they caused the problem in the first place, and it was never a power for them to have.
Are you going to keep putting words in my mouth, or are you going to address my argument?
Okay, thanks. What do you make od the argument that as the natures of our technology, culture, trade etc become more sophisticated, the role of government necessarily expands to, as Huxley says, "keep the ship of State on an evem keel"?
I forsee star lanes being monitored like freeways, but that would more be staying the course than expanding the government. No, there will never be an existential need for more government, we have too much as it is. But there will never be a shortage of statists who think they know better trying to tell everyone else what to do "for their own good".
My hope is that expansion will bring opportunities to cast off the shackles of government and allow those who want to be under government to live happily while the rest of us can head for the new frontiers to live how we want to.
What new frontiers?
Would you favour a system that meant you didn't pay any taxes, but you were unable to access those services (roads, education, health etc) without paying for them?
Technology, space, the ocean, a portal to Hell. Whatever.
Anybody who wouldn't want a system that allows opting out is a tyrant or authoritarian, at best.
Of course, a system that allows opting out must also allow for private alternative that the state cannot regulate or coerce. You pay 70 percent taxes for an easy life, I'll pay a few bucks a day to drive in the private speed lane in my wingless jet to report in to my job as a private security contractor on fire response duty.
Okay, I'm getting it, thanks. I doubt we'll ever get past authoritarianism - the will to power seems pretty baked into human nature to me. I don't want to reignite a whole thing here, but there's one point I want to make: suggesting that we're going for "an easy life" is pretty reductionist, and not what actually motivates a good number of people, I think. Some of us truly believe that we have a responsibility to society that precedes our own personal interests (and thus choose to eg pay taxes for services we'll never use ourselves).
@famousone, what you’re proposing isn’t functional for a society. You get angry about people translating your words and the say things like you just said. Do you believe people are proposing and saying these things?
...70% taxes... easy life...
No one is proposing that. No one is even suggesting something like that. Having universal access to healthcare is not giving everyone an easy life. It’s giving everyone a chance to have a decent healthy life.
Personally, I’m glad for publicly maintained roads. Maintaining a road is expensive and a lot of work. And using toll roads is expensive and isn’t readily affordable for everyone—which is fine, if there are also public roads available.
But living in a society means supporting members in all the tiers. It’s fine if there are better options for people who have the kind of money you seem to have, but there are too many people that can’t survive in that system. And that’s not freedom. The word you’re looking for is individualism.
And I guess the thing that strikes me most is you seem affronted by the notion that someone might read all the things you say and translate that to mean you don’t care about other humans—but your plan has no place for people who aren’t wealthy or connected.
Individualism is freedom. And as I've said, the problem in America was caused by the government. Cut them out and costs will become far more affordable.
@famousone was there a time period in the US when the government was appropriately uninvolved and things were going really well for most people? Which years were those?
As for a history fact that is so stupid it doesn’t seem real
First submarine to successfully sink a ship was The H.L. Hunley on February 17, 1864 yeah during the civil war! And it went missing and 130 years later they found it with its dead crew still inside.
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· 4 years ago
For once, I'm surpirised that guest isn't responsable of like 95% of the 30~ something comments
US probably has the highest paid doctors, but then what else would you expect when Health Care is a FOR-PROFIT INDUSTRY. However, the US', 46th worldwide ranking in life expectancy, might lead one to believe they are not earning that money, lol.
As for the yearly costs involved, per capita, the US Government wins, as the highest overall out of 21 countries, at over $10,000 per citizen(that's YOUR tax dollars) and then your personal insurance adds $4500-$8300...yearly. Just as point of comparison, your neighbours to the north rank 12th, at about $4800 per man woman and child, with $0 for personal insurance. Life expectancy-wise, they are ranked 30 places higher than the US, at 16th highest, with almost 4 years more of average life expectancy.
https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/ https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/cost-of-healthcare-countries-ranked-2019-3
So it seems, with the profit motive removed, a country does better overall health wise and at a cheaper cost, what with no insurance companies fucking people over for preexisting conditions and lifetime limits and hospitals existing where they're required, not just where they can turn a profit-see rural America. Health care becomes preventative rather than reactive-people don't put off a visit now and pay through the nose later. No one goes bankrupt because they lost their job provided insurance at a critical time and your boss loses that insurance stick he always holds over your head. More freedom, right?
To those that think we should all fend for ourselves, I'll ask how you feel about collectively paying for a standing army, for teachers, police and firemen, for water and sewers, roads and bridges and all manner of farm subsidies. Imagine how much higher your lifetime costs would be if these purely socialist endeavours were all run as for-profit businesses. You're being duped by the insurance companies, their lobbyists and the political whores they buy with the obscenely massive profits they make on human misery. And their constant goal is to make ever more money while further restricting access. Wake up.
Government interference is what made Healthcare in the US so weird. It ain't just about profits, but the regulations and rules that exist solely to fuck over smaller providers.
There are literally rules about minimum costs and billions of dollars in certs and justifications imposed, not by the market, but by Uncle Sam.
Cut out the imposed insurance requirements, the cost requirements before a facility us authorized life saving equipment, the tests imposed by government regulations in spite of the medical personal, and you see all of our problems laid bare.
Healthcare in the US is fucked, thank Obama, Bush, Carter, and every administration to ever think the government should help where a problem didn't exist before.
As a person who helped design some of the modern healthcare insurance systems I had to learn intimately where all the money goes. And given that knowledge I find your claims to be 100% correct.
@funkmasterrex
Imma be a lil nitpicky on one part of your comment on the megathread but I don't want to comment in that mess of things.
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"The idea of socialism didn't exist when that was written" isn't entirely true. It may not have been called socialism but leveller movements, proto communist movements, and socialist movements existed before the modern common terminology. A specific example of this would be "The Diggers" in England who created an anarcho-socialist society in the 1600's.
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The term socialism came about during the French Revolution 1789 to 1800's (historians debate the end date of the revolution to this very day). The constitution was written in 1787. The founding fathers were largely influenced by European politcial philosophies so it wouldn't be a stretch that one of them new about socialistic theories, even if it weren't called that.
Aye that I agree with, which is my point. It wasn't called socialism, and similar ideas existed, it's how people now are expressing the fear of the idea of "socialism" now, when it was clearly there from the beginning.
Hell, in a way, Romans practiced a form of socialism with bath houses.
Hell in a way it goes deeper than that; it's literally in our nature. We helped out our own tribe incase somebody got fucked up, because in doing so it affords protection for the self. Basic healthcare. The ideas have become conflated with economical socialism, which isn't even what raising taxes on the wealthy is... They'll still be rich. It would take centuries for Bezos to spend $140 billion for example.. and the sheer number of public roads he's utilized to make that money demands he pays taxes to keep up the maintenance on those roads.
I'm playing devil's advocate here, but just because socialism is a morally fair and altruistic system at heart doesn't mean it has any guarantee of success. There are plenty of good ideas that work in theory, but fail in practice, since that's all a good idea is: an idea. Proper implementation requires the idea change just enough to survive in the real world, rather than changing the world to fit the idea.
Saying you can fix the bureaucratical nightmare of governmental/corporate redtape and regulations by taxing more money from whoever you think should pay those taxes is like saying you can fill up a disgusting, cracked, and broken pool with more water. The water will be in the pool-until it drains out an you're left with with the same thing you started with. A filthy, broken, leaking pool with absolutely abhorrent puddles of filth lying about it.
But we get shit others don’t:
The right to choose our doctors
The right to decide to keep people on life support
Less taxes
Not be forced to buy or pay for certain health insurance we can pick our own or to not have one
We can walk out of a hospital and not be arrested for refusing treatment
We can check ourselves in and out of psych wards
Our doctors are better because they are paid better
We get the right to choose what treatment we want
We have religious rights when it comes to health treatments
And there is so many more things that we get that others don’t
So yeah keep blowing your horn how you don’t pay when you get more taxes taken than we do
For a doctor you didn’t even use the whole year
While we sit here only paying when we need to.
Yet some how still have people coming from around the world to our doctors looking for help
And AGAIN. It's in the fucking Constitution: PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE. FOR FUCKS' SAKE HOW CLEARER CAN THAT GET?! The idea of socialism didn't exist when that was written, and insurance was sketchy, at best. Insurance was more like turning to the mafia; which is why the job was tasked to the fucking government when it was formed.
Even developing countries (like VN where i am) have a decent healthcare syterm where people won't go in debt for breaking an arm or leg.
Isn't it better to pay 1/10 of your monthy paycheck (let say $200-300) for a whole year of healthcare (regular checkups, medicine for common cold, fever, injuries, etc)
Than accidentally get ill or break an arm or just call an ambulance to end up paying thousands?
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Not to mention, noone forces you to sign up for affordable healthcare, it's not how it works, you can stick to your ridicilously expesnive healthcare that charge $300 for insulin
but the people, the poor, the working class, the essential workers that face death everyday NEEDS it.
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Paying Taxes isn't just paying for what you use, it's your duty to give back and contribution to build a better society for everyone.
They pay around half of what our doctors get. And didn’t it make big news in Europe just a few years ago a family had to FIGHT THE COURTS to keep their son on life support and they lost?!
And not to mention America does have a health care plan for the poor.
It goes by different names in each state
Here in California it is Medical in Texas it’s called Texas Medicaid
But boils down to same stuff free medicine, free ER, free Doctor appointments, free EMS, and so on.
You just have to be under a certain salary as in poor. Lower class and under.
And yes that is out of our taxes
The wealthy can afford to pay for health care.
The rest can afford insurance and those who can’t those who fall between the line of government help and having to pay on their own well truth is there is organizations plus help services to help and go fund me.
PLUS
We are the 2nd richest country Switzerland being first
Yeah we are 7th in recycling but we are climbing America invited the straw thing about saving the turtles
Canada produces the most waste
We are 2nd with best schools
Honestly the list goes on how we out rank other countries but no all I ever hear is
My CoUnTrY hAs FrEe HeAlTh CaRe!
(cue spongebob meme)
Not a family dispute. This was parents against doctors.
AND THE FAMILY AFTER LOSING TRIED TO RAISE MONEY TO COME TO THE USA WHERE THEY KNEW THEIR SON BE TREATED RIGHT!!!
So check your facts Jack!
We all vote and the majority picks that is how we live.
Other countries have a vote and some don’t but basically in the end they just bow their heads and take what is given to them.
Every day we have people fighting for better rights NOT because what we have HELPS NO ONE but because they hat we have DOESN’T HELP EVERYONE! And so we work to make each day better.
But each and every fucking country is that spongebob meme
I am sick of it!
It’s like when I tell people I am dyslexic they go O YOU READ LETTERS BACKWARDS?
No fucker I don’t!
I just think each country should stick to their own politics and their own rights and if you need help don’t spit on the hand that feeds you!
There will always put one country above the others but to constantly make us the joke I am sick of it
I have just been and a huge fight today with a relative and honestly I think I carried my anger to here.
So I am going to leave it at this:
No one is right no one is wrong but what America has is what we have and that is what we as a country have to deal with we fought to be free to make our own choices and we won that right.
Who knows one day we might come to an agreement to be free health care but till that day we are working on what we have and in the end honestly all plans around the world have problems.
No country is perfect and if there is one than that country is empty of human life.
Promote the general welfare, not provide. And there is no country like the US in the world. Anybody can leave and live like everyone else, but there is no place else for those of us who prefer the way we're meant to be.
We value individual liberty. We killed and died for it, and will do so again if it becomes necessary.
Took someone long enough.
It's only great BC you're not directly suffering from the shitty systems that literary lead people in debt. Many claim to rather call an Uber than an ambulance and you don't think that's a problem?
The second richest country in the world? Where the 1% earn more than the combination of the rest 99%? Yea right, that's pretty rich.
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You're not fighting for people, you don't give a damn about the people with lower/average income who work 8 hours per day, 5 days per week who desperately need a healthcare system that work.
What's the point of being the second richest country with high quality medical systems when most people cant afford it???
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You only speak like this BC you have the privilege to do so.
There are thousands people out there, even your own neighbors that don't have such privilege.
Would it be so hard to stop for a second and think "this works for me but does it work for others?", Is it that hard?
You don't speak for the ones without your privilege.
Even tho you call it "mommy and daddy"
Or maybe you and you people aren't so stuck up about your "freedom" and not "being like everyone else", then the number of deaths due to Covid wouldn't be so highest.
The "greatest" country with the highest deaths, how ironic.
It'll be hard to believe, but I mean this with no disrespect: you sound like a crazy person to me, this time. I know you're intelligent and articulate, but sometimes the conclusions you reach (Michigan Murders the Elderly!), and the assumptions you base them on, are absurd on their face to me. The rate of Covid deaths in the States is astronomically higher than just about everywhere, and you maintaining that it was the best possible outcome is just obviously wrong. But the victor writes the history, and you may well be proven right someday.
I don't say any of this with any malice, but I do wonder what it means. I'm intelligent and articulate too, but despite having more or less the same raw materials, we end up almost incomprehensibly far apart in our values - and I'm not sure how to effectively communicate with you, but it continues to feel important that I try.
And our count is inflated. Any death WITH covid is counted as covid in the US. Cancer. Pneumonia. Heart attack. Pulmonary embolism. Gunshot wound. Car wreck.
Here's a tip, ignore the media narrative. They are not honest about anything, even the things that make their bosses look good aren't enough for them.
You need to fix your country.
And in order to do that, you have to have the guts to admit that it got problems. And it starts with you people.
How is the government trying to help a bad thing and would make things worse? That only means the government is either doing a bad job or the people don't have enough common sense to accept the help provided.
Either way, it's a huge problem.
Yes - it's so much easier to hear you when the language isn't so hyped, thank you. But I tell you, I've never been one to believe what I read in the papers - I'm living through the Murdoch Era, remember. You're obviously a deep thinker, what do you make of the observation that anti-intellectualism is on the rise in America's political right?
We do not want to be taken care of. How many times will I have to tell you?
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Willfree, anti-intelectualism is on the rise, but not on the left or the right. The reason it may appear as such is just because one side is so entirely opposed to entertaining any dissenting thought, or investigating any alternative explanations or solutions. Which side that is, of course, depends on the issue in question.
With that being said, as long as the American governement keeps letting only Americans die it's not our problem here in Europe so we can all keep our own view on the matter and move on with our lives.
That misrepresentation of the entire issue is why I hate Euroes trying to play neo-colonialist and tell us what to do like you're so perfect and enlightened. Pay for your own defense, trade routes, innovation, and see what gets cut first.
I’m happy for those of you that have such great medical care that you don’t think it’s a need, but talk to some people outside of your regular experience. Talk to some folks working in manual labor in need of back surgery they can’t get because they can’t afford insurance and can’t pay the $30k out of pocket. Or people who will have pain from injuries for the rest of their lives because they couldn’t afford the surgical intervention to properly repair it and had to settle for the ER patch up.
It sounds like you have a really nice thing going and I can see why you wouldn’t want to rock that boat.
So let me ask you, when was the last time you went without important medical care because you couldn’t afford it?
Is that a never?
Do you feel like you are still suffering today for that lack of treatment, or has the military covered that expense for you now?
Speaking of military, may I ask how much you pay out of pocket for your healthcare premiums/treatment?
And you’re fighting against your fellow Americans (because there are plenty of us who agree that the medical system in this country is broken) for something you don’t need and feel entitled to say they shouldn’t have it.
You think your taxes shouldn’t contribute to paying the medical expense of other people, but my taxes contribute to paying for yours. I want that for all my fellow Americans. Even if it means I pay more.
Enough Americans don't want it. Too bad that people are still free to decide as much, huh?
And it’s cute that you think no health care is better than VA care. Really cute. Ever think about doing some work to make that system better for you and your fellow vets? Or is that too much like caring about someone other than yourself?
It is also adorable how you got so angry you had to resort to calling me big bad names like a child. Super cute. ;)
No healthcare objectively is better for anyone who doesn't have over 50 percent disability. Or it was, before Trump's reforms. I still don't qualify.
And I do care to help other vets. My own time and money. But I have no desire to work for the Feds outside of law enforcement or maybe foreign intelligence.
And I didn't call you a bitch, I said that hypothetically if someone has a condition that the physical doesn't catch and they don't bitch about, then...
And, there are lots of conditions a quick physical does catch, like mitral valve defects—even if you don’t bitch about it.
Our governance is what allows the the freedoms you so enjoy. It’s all part of the same system.
The best trick the insurance companies ever pulled on the American populace was convincing them that the cost of healthcare for all would hurt the American people more than it hurt the insurance companies. And you’re so filled up with that story that you can’t believe any thing else even when someone who lives in a place that has these things tells you otherwise.
As I've been saying, our system's problem is the government. They are not the solution. They are the problem.
And the government does not allow freedoms, those freedoms allow the government. Do you need an American civics lesson? Those people with their other system do not have a leg up in the discussion. They don't know our system, our government, our history, our culture, or our people, so let's keep the discussion domestic.
Keep telling yourself we're brainwashed, certainly much easier than looking back and seeing that the feds turned the system to shit in the first place by meddling where they shouldn't have.
we know that you/your President claimed to have the best medical system, you know you and your people claimed to be the second richest country in the world, we know you and your people claimed to be the greatest.
and we know you have the highest deaths in this damned pandemic.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Aldous Huxley: https://youtu.be/3TQZ-2iMUR0
Currently I do not want to get rid of the federal government, just for them to be reverted to their enumerated powers and original taxing ability.
The feds are great at doing what they are meant to do, which does not and never included education, retirement, or medicine.
As far wanting other people to have health care, you argue a pretty strong case against it. And it sounds quite a lot like you don’t want it because you feel like it it is coming from “your pocket.”
You don’t want people from countries where this system is effective to chime in because they don’t know us. But they know universal healthcare. They know healthier populations. They know it can and does work.
If you want everyone to have access to healthcare why are you fighting so hard against the opportunity for them to have it?
Are you going to keep putting words in my mouth, or are you going to address my argument?
Would you favour a system that meant you didn't pay any taxes, but you were unable to access those services (roads, education, health etc) without paying for them?
Anybody who wouldn't want a system that allows opting out is a tyrant or authoritarian, at best.
...70% taxes... easy life...
No one is proposing that. No one is even suggesting something like that. Having universal access to healthcare is not giving everyone an easy life. It’s giving everyone a chance to have a decent healthy life.
Personally, I’m glad for publicly maintained roads. Maintaining a road is expensive and a lot of work. And using toll roads is expensive and isn’t readily affordable for everyone—which is fine, if there are also public roads available.
But living in a society means supporting members in all the tiers. It’s fine if there are better options for people who have the kind of money you seem to have, but there are too many people that can’t survive in that system. And that’s not freedom. The word you’re looking for is individualism.
First submarine to successfully sink a ship was The H.L. Hunley on February 17, 1864 yeah during the civil war! And it went missing and 130 years later they found it with its dead crew still inside.
As for the yearly costs involved, per capita, the US Government wins, as the highest overall out of 21 countries, at over $10,000 per citizen(that's YOUR tax dollars) and then your personal insurance adds $4500-$8300...yearly. Just as point of comparison, your neighbours to the north rank 12th, at about $4800 per man woman and child, with $0 for personal insurance. Life expectancy-wise, they are ranked 30 places higher than the US, at 16th highest, with almost 4 years more of average life expectancy.
https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/life-expectancy/
https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/cost-of-healthcare-countries-ranked-2019-3
There are literally rules about minimum costs and billions of dollars in certs and justifications imposed, not by the market, but by Uncle Sam.
Cut out the imposed insurance requirements, the cost requirements before a facility us authorized life saving equipment, the tests imposed by government regulations in spite of the medical personal, and you see all of our problems laid bare.
Healthcare in the US is fucked, thank Obama, Bush, Carter, and every administration to ever think the government should help where a problem didn't exist before.
Imma be a lil nitpicky on one part of your comment on the megathread but I don't want to comment in that mess of things.
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"The idea of socialism didn't exist when that was written" isn't entirely true. It may not have been called socialism but leveller movements, proto communist movements, and socialist movements existed before the modern common terminology. A specific example of this would be "The Diggers" in England who created an anarcho-socialist society in the 1600's.
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The term socialism came about during the French Revolution 1789 to 1800's (historians debate the end date of the revolution to this very day). The constitution was written in 1787. The founding fathers were largely influenced by European politcial philosophies so it wouldn't be a stretch that one of them new about socialistic theories, even if it weren't called that.
Hell, in a way, Romans practiced a form of socialism with bath houses.