This comment chain

And we can be patriotic if I please.

It's the right and duty of every U.S. citizen to question the President and the Government no matter who they voted for. How else are we to have so much fun in the comments?

I never understood this sentiment: "if you don't like it, then leave." America is a nation of change that has, and should, adapt to the times without sacrificing what makes it so unique.

Hundreds of empty cans swore they were leaving in 2016, they are still here rattling away.

I never understood this whole thought process either. If we start the purge, then I'll leave. No way in hell I'm surviving that.

But guest- Obama isn’t the president anymore

America is literally built on change. Criticism of government is where this country started- and it has been built on the idea of as much freedom as practical for every citizen. That is an American duty to uphold, and one thing that can not change in America or there would no longer be an America. It is however our human duty to try and lift up our fellow humans, to try and share the fortune in our lives with others. Here’s the catch- The American fore bearers didn’t just complain. They didn’t “raise awareness” and smugly pat themselves on the back. They saw something they believed wrong and risked everything they had and became traitors to their nation to right that wrong. So if you don’t like it, do something or leave. There’s no free anything. Someone has to give something up. Lots of people cry for basic wages or “free” public services but when asked what they would give- most wont give time, money, or much else to make it happen. That’s the complaint. Empty belly aching.

*at the expense of a country that has given them so much, including the right to complain, including all those things they have they aren’t willing to risk or give up to see change enacted. Anyone can ask someone else to die for them, to sacrifice for the good of themselves or others, but before we hold them up as heroes maybe ask- are they willing to do the same, or do they just want to take without giving back?

Only one thing I'ma say: the minimum wage was ABSOLUTELY supposed to be a living wage, actually slightly higher.
Idk where you guys are getting your information, but I get it from the guy who fucking signed it into law.

http://docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/odnirast.html

This is accurate Funkmasterrex, however, jobs back then we're grueling and the point of the minimum wage and living wage was the keep factories for exploiting their workers in the hard labor and giving them dirt cheap wages in return. It was not designed for non skill related jobs that are open to anyone to pick up. I agree there should be a living wage, but it should apply to skill related jobs only. If the job requires experience or schooling/apprenticeship, living wage. If the job does not require anything more than and high school diploma, or maybe even less, non living wage. That's my opinion though.

There's literally two paragraphs talking about the slackers though. I know FDR couldn't have predicted fast food jobs or wal-mart, but he also couldn't have predicted the corporate welfare those companies actually get indirectly through paying less than a living wage and actively encouraging their employees to get personal welfare to make up for the shortcomings for the sake of profit. If you actually comb through the numbers, a living wage without price increases is possible while still staying in the black. Sure, the top 10-15 members of each company suffer, but it's also absolutely ridiculous that they are each pushing a $200 million/year income... with some pushing $1 billion/year.

Also, not to mention the whole point of purchasing power... instead of wealth just accumulating in a dragon's den where it's effectively removed from the economy, money that isn't exchanging hands isn't fulfilling it's purpose. It doesn't even take faith; history has shown that profits across the board increase as purchasing power increases.

One last point, whether you are flipping a burger, changing a tire, or engineering a tank... one fact still remains: A company is buying your TIME when they employ you. Time is the ultimate resource. A living wage should exist based on that fact alone.

The entire argument that low wage jobs shouldn’t pay a living wage falls apart. I see people say things like “jobs that don’t even require a high school diploma” but.... what do people do to survive in the meantime if they are under educated for a job that “deserves” living wage, and trying to learn what they need? If they’re working 2-4 jobs just to survive, and they’ll need another just to pay for school- where will they get the time to even go? If they don’t have a high school diploma it’s from actions they made when they were maybe 18? So they should have to work 2-3x as hard to “earn” a job they can survive on compared to you, because when they weren’t old enough to vote yet they didn’t get a diploma? It doesn’t add up. Why do we insist on making things harder for people who already have it hardest, and easier for people already doing alright? If you want to inspire people to do better- make it like a game. Incremental rewards that get harder as you gain.

Learn a skilled trade

Trades are good careers. Less volatile than many others. But they aren’t immune. De unionization has cost a lot from many sectors, and there are fewer and fewer jobs where quality is put at a premium. When someone can do 60% as well from the customers perspective and costs 80% less.... look at all these new houses. Molding that doesn’t line up, lousy corners, lazy paint, cheap materials and “knock down” finishes. Whole neighborhoods go up in a month and sell at a huge profit. Why pay tens of thousands more in materials and craftsmanship when people are already willing to pay hundreds of thousands for crap? The same has happened in fields like auto mechanics and other technical roles. Why pay a machinist 100/hr for tolerances that can launch a space shuttle when the design allows .01 either way- just machine it in China or design it to just need rough cast and finishing. The “skilled” craftsman is becoming a niche that caters to high end customers. A well paid niche, but a small one.

Chinese cannot hang duct, pipe or drywall. Hell in PA if the job has public funds it has to be domestic steel. My non union shop out performs most of the union shops in terms of quality. Most of us enjoy a better pay package. Don’t give me that “union is better” nonsense.

I never said union was better. I said that skilled labor isn’t in demand as many places as it once was. You can see it at the store, the car lot, in new buildings and construction, in lots of places. The “little extra” touches that were once required as a sign of competence are now either unexpected bonuses or charged for at a premium rate. If a company can hire a guy with 40 years of experience who knows all the info by heart for 40% more than a kid who doesn’t know anything about the industry but can google it or at least do the bare minimum- they’ll look at the market and usually decide that an X percent decrease in satisfaction or quality equals a much smaller decrease in profit compared to the savings and flexibility of hiring unskilled workers so long as they can do so legally and without liability.

Some do. We sell ourselves as high end. Sounds like you’re describing migrant illegals. We handle food and drug plants and cannot afford half assed unskilled workers.

I mentioned the union techs not in the same sentence as quality, but pay. There’s no correlation between union or non union labor and quality. There is often a correlation between unionized labor and pay and benefits though. Without discussing the pros and cons of unions or wether they are “good” or “bad” a union that actually does it’s job is interested in collecting dues by ensuring members are happy. In short: the primary function of a union is to prove fix labor for the sake of the workers compensation package. So when the techs de unionized here, they were immediately met by gradual cuts in pay and benefits. The rise of limited skill R&R work over technical labor and decrease in pay de incentivized skilled technicians and allowed for less skilled workers to take their place. Without a need for quality or a force to demand skilled wage, the only control on the price of labor is who is willing to do the job cheapest and the tipping point where lower skill effects profit.

Tl:dr- I never said unions were good or had anything to do with quality. I said a business will seek the lowest cost (usually least skilled) labor to fit a job so long as the skill level doesn’t impact the job enough that the costs of it begin to penalize. Or: An electrical engineer can install a ceiling fan, an electrician can, and so can some guy at Home Depot. They’ll charge $200/100/5 an hour respectively. It doesn’t take an electrical engineer even if they may do the best job and know the most. The Home Depot Guy is cheapest but if he burns your house down or destroys your ceiling and you’ve gotta pay for dry wall and paint you didn’t save. A beginning electrician charging $70/hr would be the best value and safety from a modern corporate perspective. That’s all.

@pokethebear- I literally said in the original post that quality was still valued but more so as a high end service than a default standard of the trade. It’s not “illegals” exclusively or by far. It’s people who figure they can do xyz and learn on the job, hacks, etc. it’s the market. It’s called “velocity model” and it’s the rage. Selling more for less. Quality takes a back seat to quantity or speed. It’s why the butcher might charge $10+lb of hamburger vs $4 at the store, why the fancy pastry shop charges $5 for a cupcake that’s $1 at the chain market. Most people don’t care enough about the texture or consistency or subtle flavors etc to pay the premium. They want 20 cupcakes for $6 and now. The baker still has a business, but most aspiring pastry chefs lucky enough to get jobs won’t be doing that. They’ll be thawing frozen deserts and putting some syrup drizzle on the plate to make it look like it’s worth $10 a slice.