Thats not valid or correct. The person who wrote that appears to have developed an image of this country based off a twitter feed. They are making huge assumptions based off tiny snapshots inaccurate bs.
A lot of news sources outside of the US are still legitimate you know. As @fell_equinox said it's up to the individual to fact check using multiple sources etc.
That’s a fallacy. There is bias everywhere and corporate of government controlled media isn’t a US problem. Media corporations and conglomerates are a global thing. What’s more- there seems to be a false dichotomy that the United States is either it’s self made image of a noble “good guy” or it must be a sum of all its worst parts. Neither is true. Abortion isn’t “illegal” in the United States nor do women always get harassed for it. It is illegal some places- and one woman getting harassed anywhere is too many. But to take an entire nation of dissenting opinions and outlooks and distill it as either “good” or “terrible” is ignorant
When the United States provides funding of over $50 billion a year, is the largest provider of development funds to nations in need in the world- when the United States provides more funding to foreign medics programs than anyone else- whole countries medical infrastructure relies upon free money provided by the United States for their basic functionality. We also blow people up and spy on your emails and have racial issues and gun issues and abortion issues and more. That’s the mark of a functional democracy. Things are very smooth in countries content with a majority de facto rule or some form of dictatorship. When you make everyone equal you make the whack jobs and scum bags equal too and there is a price to that. The US is neither hero nor villain. As a democracy we decide what we want to be at any given generation.
Guest, we agree again.
Freedom means that you can stand up and voice your opinion WITHOUT consequence. But it also means you have the freedom to be unique in your opinion, offensive, immoral, or even flat out wrong.
.
Freedom isn't about everyone feeling comfortable, it's about having the right to get uncomfortable if you need to or want to.
Yep. And American food is so fucked up, everything is so processed it's a nightmare and even a former First Lady got confused about what was healthy or not.
America is my favorite dystopia sometimes.
And yet, everyone still wants to come here, people decide to stay here, and literally the entire world follows our lead and takes cues from us.
Almost as if we aren't really like the caricature that you see on Twitter, like the country actually isn't anything like you described...
Nah, that can't be right.
"everyone still wants to come here"
[X] doubt
It's the equivalent of "people are making fun of me because they're jealous", nothing can be a model for everyone.
She is. At least, for those who love liberty and competition, for those who want control over their own lives, and for those who seek to make something of themselves.
Nevermind that our culture, economy, and military steers the rest of the world.
We all have control over our owns lives, except in dictatures. Your culture started centuries after everyone else's. Your cultural products may be well-known over the planet, but we see that as getting the best of your country. Your economy is interesting for people who don't come from a 1st world country and see it as an opportunity, whereas the other countries see your absence of medical healthcare and your student loans. Regarding military, I'm not gonna say that as a pacifist I couldn't care less, I'll just say that strategy is more important than raw force and if your big advantage is strength, that makes you the annoying kid who used to hit everyone all the time.
ok, I'll stop, I don't want to fight, it's ok if we disagree and it's even better, as it's normal to love your country and that's why you love yours and I love mine (even though I wouldn't say any nation is superior to the others). Sometimes really black and white opinions make me want to add some nuance, that's it. :)
We do not want to be like you. We'll look after our damn selves, thank you very much. And we've got the raw force AND the strategy. That's how we rolled over the Nazi's and the Imperial Japanese, why y'all didn't end up in a Soviet gulag, and why still the likes of Russia, China, and Iran don't just try to take what they want.
If you don't have pride in your country, find a better country. Or are you going to claim that Syria is just as good and valid as Poland or Japan?
If you aren't willing to stand for something, it's no wonder you'll fall for anything.
Having pride is one thing, insisting that your country is better than everyone else's is exactly the kind of attitude that makes America look so obnoxious. Every country has its triumphs and its problems - it's not a competition. The "us and them" mentality is so damaging, can't you see that there are more productive approaches to the conversation?
Maybe you should spend sometime elsewhere to have a comparism. Right now, you're just one of those persons running around shouting "USA, number one, baby" without wondering "number one in what".
The world has stopped following your lead long time ago, everybody with an open mind can see where this leads to: a widely miseducated nation, where feelings and religious fanatism is set higher than common sense, science and facts, a society with a good lack of solidarity amongst each other, as everybody is just thinking of his own benefits. You're talking about liberty in the country with the highest percentage of inprisonment in the world. You are talking about competition whilst only a good dozen families are really profiting from everything. You are living in a financial feudalism without even recognising it. And stay away from sickness and pregnancy, both can end you for good.
That self-invented USP "Freedom" is available in almost every developped country.
Read a book, man. Travel.
Wow. You're making a lot of assumptions that are leading you to some very wrong conclusions. I can't even begin to brake it down because you're fundamentally wrong.
Pick one issue at a time. And I'll break down whether it's accurate, misconstrued, or outright wrong.
America the great? Russia the great? Ireland the great? Need flash- if you live in a country that you love, truly love, and wouldn’t want to live anywhere else- THAT is the greatest country to you. America is the “greatest country” to many of her citizens. Objectively? No country is the greatest. Wether it be China, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, France, America- there are places some people wouldn’t want to live and others LOVE living there. I wouldnt want to live in a religious fundamentalist country- but devout practitioners LOVE that their religion is THE religion, their morals are the law, and so on.
America might not be for you. Lots of people dream about it. Lots of people love our films and games or many of our other products. Many people love the idea of our laws and society. And many don’t. Many who live in America don’t much like it here. That’s ok. You dont have to love America. I do. There are things I don’t like. Luckily it’s a democracy and I can work to change those things.
However- there is no reason for America to be like any other country. There’s no reason to spew vitriol at America and it’s people as a whole because there are things you don’t like or things you wouldnt want to live with. The solution is either become an American and work to change it- or don’t live with it. Be happy with the country YOU love and let other people love theirs.
As for the rest- well yeah. I live here. I love America- and I get sick of hearing people talk about how great it is or how this country or that country doesn’t measure up. I love Japan, the Philippines, lots of places. Beautiful places. Wonderful people and each with its own great things and less than great things. I love America enough to live here though. As cool as Japan is- I don’t want to live there. Nothing wrong with someone else wanting to live there. I can see why they would- but for me it’s not the best fit.
But when you start denigrating America and picking at any problem you can to retaliate against what you see as a superior attitude- you’re just as guilty. Just as negatively “American” as a person who tears apart another culture because you don’t understand or agree with it. How is that any different than American attitudes to many foreign countries? How is the sentiment that “this place could really be more than a shit hole of if adopted my way of thinking...” any better than what you hate about the image of America? And you could then see perhaps where one might take the “jealousy” argument? When you’re acting like what you supposedly hate but saying that you’re better than that? If you feel that way about those aspects of America why are you acting just like it except without the guns to push people around?
Yeah, plenty of people don't want to come here, more power to them.
But it doesn't change that we have one of highest number of people trying to come in.
Famousone? You sound well and truly indoctrinated. Travel would be good for you. Read up on some places, find out about other cultures... I'm from Africa and I promise you could learn from us. You could learn from any place you visit. Being American doesn't make you better than a single other human. Get over yourself.
I've been all over the United States, as well as parts of South and Central America.
As a matter of fact, America is definitely better than a lot of nations. Nations that allow female genital mutilation, commit genocide and ethnic cleansings, dump acid on or burn little girls alive, subscribe to sharia law, or wipe out an entire bloodline at some madman's behest. I'm definitely better than them.
I don't want to learn a damn thing from the likes of dictators, warlords, or theocratic despots.
I'm willing to bet you are better than those fuckers, too.
We're also better than countries that don't recognize the inherent rights like those outlined in the Bill of Rights, but the likes of Germany are still leagues above Assad's Syria.
I am Muslim. I'm also a psychology student and a volunteer. I'm more than where I come from. I am human. Every person you're being so hateful towards? They are human too. Some people are evil, but the individual is then evil not the country.
Where a person comes from doesn’t matter. Democracy is in the heart. Freedom, compassion- all in the heart. Just as cruelty and subjugation are. Good people exist everywhere. I certainly can’t subscribe to the idea that good folk don’t abide evil and not act. No American could judge another nation or a person of another nation by that standard without condemning themselves.
In many countries people do not speak or rise up out of fear of death, torture, to them or their loved ones. In the United States- we have wrong. Our government does wrong. People in power do wrong, corporations do wrong, and we benefit. We often support them with votes or money or other means. We often say nothing and let things happen, and the consequence of our standing up is merely a fear of social stigma or damage to our livelihoods or standard of living. So how could an American say to someone who might face death for dissent against “wrongs” that they are complicit or a coward when we allow so much wrong in our own society but are protected by status and law from all but superficial retribution’s?
When the killings are happening in your neighborhood, and you're of able body and choosing to do nothing, you're allowing evil's triumph.
Iraq and Afghanistan would've been over years ago if the locals would just tell us where haji planted the bomb, or where he's keeping the prisoners, or when the executions will take place.
You don't even need to load up the Kalashnikov yourself, just do something to hinder evil and aid those who are loading up. Instead of selling your cousin in the ANA out to haj, maybe tell his unit where haj is planning to ambush them.
Ah- but would you deploy to a place like that- with no equipment, training, support, backup, and being disavowed as a US citizen- and oppose these evils yourself- attempt to raise local support, and deal with certain torture and death if you failed- and maybe even if you succeeded?
It often is for many people. A dream, a fantasy. Because here’s the crazy thing- you could- at any time. Hell- there was a guy who went to Africa and deposed a warlord, seized a country using old soviet military hardware. But here we are talking- and you aren’t alone in some foreign country fighting as a one man force against evil. You are serving to try and do good yes. But you’re backed by the most well equipped and well budgeted fighting force on earth. So you can SAY you would stand up against these regimes even against seemingly insurmountable odds and certain death- but.... you haven’t. You enlisted, you didn’t buy a ticket to a dictatorship and go champion right in a suicidal bid.
Perhaps you will find yourself in one of these places fighting for these people one day. You’re already part of the fight even if you’ve been set up in a support or REMF role. You’re doing a part. But if you do deploy you’ll have artillery, air support, intelligence communities, JSOC operations, armor, etc etc. and if you found yourself as a Spook or working with the spooks or in some black bag SOF situation- you’re still there with training and some form of support even if that support is tacit and falls to disavowment on failure.
So I’m not saying you wouldn’t be capable or have the guts to participate in such an operation- but I am saying that you did and still do have the opportunity to just... go do it yourself, at any point- you haven’t. To be honest? While you MIGHT find yourself there in an operational capacity- if we are being honest it’s unlikely once your bid is up you’re going to take your last check and fly off to some country as a private citizen and organize a revolt.
So even with all the resources available to an American citizen- which tend to be more than people in many of these countries have available- even growing up in a culture where rebellion, freedom, and vigilante justice are romanticized Core cultural elements- you haven’t. Without living in such pervasive systems that grind the resolve and make things you might find repugnant part of everyday life and all around you- you don’t. So how could you expect someone else to do it because you like to dream you would do it?
How many Americans dream of quitting their job, telling their boss off, going back to school, losing weight, getting in shape, being a celebrity or a business owner? These aren’t even dreams that risk getting you tortured or killed and most of us who “dream” about these things often never even seriously try to achieve them. So perhaps many of these people you speak of also “dream” about it- and perhaps just like you they haven’t ever acted on that dream? So how can we criticize them for it without condemning ourselves?
I do understand what you're saying, and you are raising good points, but my counter-point is that it isn't my neighborhood. I have not gone to learn a new language and fight those motherfuckers myself solely because I am first and foremost an American nationalist.
I will be overjoyed when I am sent over there to do work alongside the locals already courageous enough to stand against evil, but that ain't my neighborhood. It's theirs.
I was never talking about going to far away places and loading up, but fighting evil in your own home. I've done what I could to resist negative elements, aid the police, and even throw down on my neighbor's behalf, and there is no doubt in my mind that the instant some fundamentalist nuts starts stringing people up and stripping away rights and liberties en masse, I will be the among the first to respond. Shit, I've been cut, stabbed, beat down, and shot at before ever joining the Army.
I do not understand how a person could live with themselves when they are able to stop the evil right across the street yet choose not to. That's why I do not have much sympathy for those who do not resist or at least not cooperate with acts of evil.
The fight for tax reform laws from the keyboard, or throwing in a vote about gay marriage anonymously and without recourse- writing an angry letter to a politician you know isn’t going to get you thrown in jail- these are all easier than standing up to an oppressive regime with your life and liberty at risk. In “free” countries we are safe to “fight” wrong and have while systems to make it easy and safe to do so. To protect us if we get a little off track. Even if you leak classified documents because you think it’s right- they aren’t going to murder your family or torture you for days. You’ll get a nice long trial- maybe bail. Appeals, a relatively cushy (but still horrible) prison stay- it’s easy for us.
The people in America who do what we are taking about? Who go way outside the system to fight what they see as wrong? Those are people who blow up abortion clinics, people who blow up the Oklahoma city federal building or take government offices in Oregon by force. I’m not saying they are good or right- not am I condemning right now. I’m saying what you are taking about- staging open rebellion against your country? That’s what THOSE people do, that’s what politically motivated mass shooters do. They see what they think is wrong or corrupt and they strike.
But you’ve never done any of that have you? You’ve never had a siege against the police or stormed congress with an armed team because you felt their decisions were wrong have you? I mean- you really don’t have to do you? If you don’t like something you can protest, boycott, speak out and write letters. You can vote, you can go on TV or the internet and evangelize. You have options and outlets. But violence- as many domestic terrorists have proven- IS an option. But... for all the wrongs in the country you’ve never taken arms against it have you? It’s extreme and harder than it sounds- especially when you’ve been stripped of the protections that even a mass shooter gets. In America you can blow up a government building and still get a trial, not be tortured, know your family is safe, get appeals, and in most states- know you won’t even be killed for it if you don’t want to die.
So we are a little spoiled- biased perhaps in our assertions. We have lots of guns on this country, lots of know how, lots of advantages that could help us to succeed, even have the will to try, and protect us if we failed. And in the end- it’s domestic terrorism unless you overthrow the government. Until then you’re a terrorist. If you fail you’re a terrorist. Many- even those who might agree with your feelings etc. would still see you as a terrorist. People blow up abortion clinics but not every person who is pro life sees that and comes running to help. With all the folks against “big government” Waco or Oregon or any of these huge and media prevalent sieges didn’t spur the most extreme “patriots” to rise up- and these are guys with compounds and guns and an active grudge- seeing the struggle ignite- all “dreaming” of the day... and they didn’t join in. There wasn’t a “second civil war” yet.
Thankfully.
Though I will say with absolute certainty that when the state is complicit or worse in little girls being lit on fire, gays thrown from rooftops, or heretics being executed, enough of us will be willing to do work.
Perhaps. Or perhaps we would find out that what seemed like enough when everyone was safe and secure from consequences to say such things- when there is a real danger and a real need for action- that suddenly many voices are few bodies on the actual front. Of all the passengers on those planes that hit on 9/11- very very few actually tried to do anything. Slavery was not abolished in America by mass uprising, and the Concentration camps of Germany had far more prisoners than guards. Speaking of-
When the Nazis came there were many who didn’t agree. After the war it was found that many high in rank or close in trust to the Nazis didn’t agree or support them- but they were silent- often complicit. When Stalin began to seize power and pervert the communist doctrines and create a dictatorship he didn’t have to crush too many dissenters before he suddenly had most people singing his tune.
So the overall statement “when people are of sound mind and body and don’t oppose...” well- that’s the thing- that soundness has been compromised. The very nature of such long term and prevalent psychological stress compromises the mind, the spirit, the body. So my overall point is that it can’t be held against a people living under oppression or torment or living amidst “wrongs,” even perverse ones that they don’t stand against it. In a society where everyone would rather die than live with wrong all we would have is a world full of dead people. No one would be left because we all live with wrongs- it’s all relative. What is “normal” depends upon what you are accustomed to-
And while a martyr makes a compelling dead hero and appeals to the ego- “they put it all on the line for what they believed...” that’s great. But- if everyone who believes that is a dead “hero,” who is left to actually change anything? In the moment- it is much harder to live in pain or fear or misery than it is to die. Death is the easy way out. It makes it hard to question a persons commitment doesn’t it? “How dare you question a person willing to die for you?”
It makes a big impression and we can know our name is remembered- our personal dignity and sense of honor preserved. But if your honor or an ideal is worth more to you than even your life- then reading your life for it isn’t such a big sacrifice is it? You’d literally just rather die- it’s a choice and you chose the option you prefer. But if an ideal or honor is more to you than your life- suffering living through the indignity is much harder. That you actually have to dig deep for every moment every day. It’s not a simple decision one can make in a split second on instinct like jumping on a live grenade.
Death is death. You do it once- you die. You don’t have anything else to worry about. Whatever happens next isn’t your problem and you’ll never know. Life is hard. It’s every day. Living for hope of a better day- living for the small joys you can take from an otherwise terrible existence- that’s hard. Living when you would rather die than live- that is courageous. That takes strength and character. Any idiot can die. Anyone who feels they don’t have anything worth living for or that death is the better option can make that call. So it’s perhaps not so simple.
You mentioned Nazis that didn't agree yet remained complicit.
I raise you the likes of Hauptsturmführer Kurt-Siegfried Schrader, Major Josef Gangl, and countless other Nazis who did defect. As well as the likes of Schindler and Major Karl Plagge, who never took up arms against the fascists yet still resisted them so as to save lives and otherwise hinder the state's evil.
And allegedly General Erwin Rommel, and senior officers who actively tried to behead the Reich.
Even in the modern day, the Kurds, some parts of the old Northern Alliance, and the Afghan National Army and Police are standing against evil in their homelands.
More people need to be willing to do something, but I find myself far more sympathetic for the resistors than for the masses.
The goal isn't to die for your beliefs, it's to make the other dumb son of a bitch die for his.
Well yes- but, and this is critically important- you list a handful of names out of an entire nation- an entire alliance of nations. You could list 100,1000 resistors and yet still not even have .0001% of the population resisting. What’s more- many did DEFECT. many did help the ALLIES. Many did carry out acts of sabotage. Their government had enemies- in a war- allies to help them- allies who they knew if they could slow the war effort, defect- stall for time- could eventually liberate them. They did not liberate Nazi germany.
If you removed every enemy combatant fighting against the Nazis from that equation- so these people had no allies- would they have done what they did? Maybe. Would they have led to the toppling good the Reich? Maybe- but highly doubtful. In fact- many of the people you name and others who resisted the Reich from within- were relatively safe to do so. They knew their actions could have grave consequence- but they also often knew they were in relatively little danger of being caught- and or had a way out of they feared being caught.
The counter doesn’t hold. It doesn’t hold because the majority of the people under the Nazis didn’t rise up. No significant force ever arose from within the government or country to topple it or have a probable hope to do so. It took several nations working together with the largest military campaign in modern history to win freedom for the people- and even then there was still an east Germany which would endure for decades. And in that east Germany it was again- outside efforts that led to freedom for the masses.
What’s more- you mention detectors but you’ve also made your stance on the US border well known. The two arguments don’t seem to reconcile. It’s a noble act of defiance that you respect for a German to illegally leave their nation and seek refuge in ours, something you respect more than doing nothing- but it’s a violation of sovereignty for a Mexican to defect from their country illegally and come to ours?
If the point is that people living under oppression or wrongs seeking a way out should fight or flee- then the next logical question is- flee to where? Someone has to take them in right- otherwise the whole “fleeing” thing is pointless when you get returned to your home country as a defector.
But it still overlooks the simple fact that those people didn’t actively fight their government. They rebelled against aspect of it- in secret- but that isn’t a way to effect change, just to prevent a single instance of wrong. But things like a fundamental philosophy towards racism or genital mutilation or whatever else- you may be able to stop a single mitigation- but that won’t change national policy because you secretly stopped a wrong. Killing a leader like Hitler or prominent general etc? That might stop a war- cause a lapse in ability in war time- but a peacetime government with institutionalized policies of “wrong” won’t be toppled. Would the US topple if someone assassinated the President? No. It might derail or freeze certain bills or activities at that moment- but not derail the entire American system.
So if one is going to die, or kill- to right wrong- one must ask wether or not they are actually doing anything worth doing. If you kill a government leader because they want to execute all homosexuals- but the next in line and the rest of most of the government all think the same- what have you done that made a difference?
And to that point- it wasn’t until deep and highly publicized revelations after the war- sometimes decades or more after- that we discovered many of the acts of defiance by those within these organizations. That’s a world war with pretty good records and the attention of... the world. So how could one look at some smaller country that isn’t in the same level of spot light and global interest and say that they weren’t as well secretly subverting their governments will while remaining undetected? That is how so many were able to oppose the Nazis is it not? By remaining undetected in their midst thus avoiding consequence and allowing them to operate from within?
As a mater of fact- we hung or killed more than a few Nazis who were later discovered to have been actually working for the allies or working against the Nazis- under the assumption they were loyal Nazis. So it seems prudent to assume that we can’t necessarily tell at a glance that any given person or society isn’t resisting to some measure just because we don’t see it. Because few of any of the cases mentioned were “open rebellion.”
Defection is ideological and/or militarily or politically motivated. Not based on economic migration or the drug trade.
Aside from that, I never said anything about fleeing. Those I mentioned stayed in-country, or in the fight at least. Not one tried to flee for their own sake.
I was saying about the Nazis that those who did rise up are examples of good men doing what they knew was right. And some of them nearly did kill the Reich, if more of them stood against the evil being carried out maybe the war would've gone differently, or been precluded entirely. Maybe General Patton and Rommel would've been leading the blitz to Stalingrad side by side if Hitler and the SS were reigned in or put down by the German people.
The point is: the few that did resist made differences that affected the war, and damn near changed it's entire face for the better, but because the masses refused to stand against what they knew was wrong, they instead were complicit in the greatest atrocities of the century and are thus hardly without blame for the aforementioned crimes.
Similar to those who turn a blind eye to Haj planting an IED, who ignore the little girl being carried off to the site of her mutilation, who refuse to speak and lie on behalf of the man about to be defenestrated for his heart's desire, who ostracized a women who's only "crime" was being a victim of assault, and offer no aid for the victims, nor cooperation to those trying to stop the evil from continuing.
But if they face swift and certain death by standing in direct opposition to evil- and that sacrifice would not stop the continuation of said evil or necessarily even stop that one case- how can we hold them to that standard? If those who set out to resist the Reich or kill Hitler had walked in to a staff meeting and said “you’re a son of a bitch and this is wrong. I won’t do it...” how far would they have gotten? To ask a person to throw themselves into direct danger openly isn’t the same thing as asking a person to work covertly towards a goal. The type of “action oriented” opposition you describe with stopping a young girl from being carried off for instance- that’s not what the Nazi opposition did. They didn’t stand between the SS and the train cars and say “this is wrong. Stop!” They did as much as they thought they could while staying in the shadows by and large.
And really- as your argument indicates- most people for one reason or another didn’t have it in them. Oscar Schindler- the famous line- “I could have saved more...” a common sentiment amongst many of his peers- but at the time- doing more would have put them in danger and put their efforts in danger often times. Of course- not always. Sometimes it just would have cost more than they wanted to spend.
But keeping that in mind- the argument boils down to “anyone who doesn’t have the strength to defend themselves is complicit in whatever happens to them.” Because we KNOW that not everyone who didn’t stand up was ok with things- they were perhaps frightened, perhaps in a vulnerable position themselves. Many of those who DID stand up admit or we can see that they could have done more- but at some point fear and self interest stopped them. So while you can certainly cherry pick a VERY small number of examples of folks who openly stood in rebellion against certain death with no coercion or self interest and of their own choosing- that’s going to be the extreme minority in any example.
The logic given not only states that most of the world including the victims of the Holocaust and the slave trade were complicit in those acts- but again- if we include covert acts of defiance- how would you know wether or not a people were making efforts against wrong? The fact that these people you lost stood up against wrong doesn’t mean that wrong didn’t still happen does it? So the presence of horrific wrong doesn’t automatically mean that no one is fighting it- much like the holocaust it just means more people are active in it than can oppose it.
And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.
Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
But- if we sum up your rebuttal- you are saying that you and Alex would both agree that the 11 million or so Jews killed- 2/3 European Jews- deserved what happened to them because they simply didn’t fight back?
I’m going to leave the tacit admittance that the holocaust is the fault of the Jews alone for right now as that itself is a deep discussion that could side track this one- and simply note my extreme disagreement and disapproval- let alone shock and disappointment at the readiness to say such a thing- which is what was said to be clear- by the simple logic put forth here that to see a wrong and not oppose is to be complicit- which of course, there wasn’t opposition to the statement and by that same logic we must assume you are complicit.
So- to the subject- it’s quite interesting we started this with Solzhenitsyn. A man who watched war crimes against women and children- by his own admission- and did nothing- well... many years later he wrote some poems and included it in some stories. So he did SOMETHING, I suppose, eventually.
As a dissenter against the Soviet Union and gulags- he published many works- outside his country, but... asides the intellectual version of “thoughts and prayers” or “raising awareness” he was not a “freedom fighter” in a tangible sense. His resistance was intellectual, emotional, a resistance of ideas. He didn’t raise armies or fight battles or anything quite so literal. He pontificated and wrote. So then- back to the original topic- if that counts for resistance- if he’s enough of a symbol of your point to quote him in support- then why wouldn’t it be legitimate to say that a person suffering under a regime- observing atrocities- who wrote letters or sent information to outside parties- wasn’t resisting? Wasn’t standing up?
Solzhenitsyn KNEW about the gulags. He knew where at least the one he was in was. He knew what happened there. He wrote about it in depth. He didn’t directly stop it. He wrote about it. He told people about it. He hoped that other people would be outraged by it and pressure or force it to stop. So if one sends a letter to a family member abroad to complain or speaks to the news- are they not resisting? Just because they lack the skill and artistry of his words and his audience are they not in spirit by resisting in the mind following his example?
Yes. Intellectual resistance is resistance. But it's insufficient.
I used his quote as an example of how wrong things get when people don't stand up.
All the letters in the world will be ignored and forgotten if no action accompanies them.
Just look at the aspiring communists and Soviet apologists outright ignoring and dismissing the atrocities of the regimes to come before.
Evil needs to be fought. Can this lead to bloodshed or misconstrued by the unhinged? Yes. But history has shown the consequences of standing idly by.
One must know when to fight and when not to fight. If you pick a fight that would both wipe yourself out- but also your resistance- you can do more harm than good. In Bosnia- there was much fighting. The people fought back with promises of aid. That aid was withdrawn- what happened? In Chechnya- they fought back. They did very well- and were then thoroughly obliterated and faced retaliation. Sometimes not openly resisting is the best course one has. Sometimes it’s better to endure dark days than to throw your life away. Sometimes it is better to wait for an opportunity than attack out of principal. There’s flailing and there’s fighting. An actual fight is tactical. You may be able to strike- you may want to strike- but a foolish rush can turn even a “sure” victory into a resounding loss.
America is often a joke to Americans. The actions of our fellow countrymen and our government and- if we have any self awareness- even ourselves sometimes embarrasses us. We get angry too- because here is a county sold as, with potential and the mission to be, a land of freedom and equality and noble virtue- failing at it. A doctor can save or enhance 10,000 lives and get little more than passing thanks for doing what was expected of them- but if they fail just once that is where people will suddenly become invested.
So if you wonder about our callousness at times or our attitude- that may be why. Because it’s just another day to most of us. Because while I’m not saying the oft touted “they’re hating because they’re jealous” line- I am saying that the rest of the world sure does love to talk about us. The rest of the world is more than willing to buy our products- support google and Facebook and Netflix and Apple and Microsoft and so many more- watch out movies and listen to our music and play our video games. We are like that lover you’ll have sex with- but you can’t look yourself in the mirror after.
So I don’t think it’s necessarily jealousy at large- but a self loathing certainly is at play. Because despite the fact America isn’t the center of the universe it’s undeniable that most people live their lives in a world where America is involved- where like many Americans- you might really hate these aspects of American society and government but at the same time you just can’t walk away from it. You can’t ignore it or forget it. Welcome to America. It’s not perfect- we can and should do better- but we are in government and industry a country about giving people what they will pay for- and people in most any country are spoiled, selfish children if you supply the means. Self destructive and narcissistic creatures who ultimately care for our own self interest. That’s universal.
So yeah/ here’s America- we didn’t bring flowers or ask about your day. We showed up with our genitals out asking if you wanted to bone, the charmers that we are, and saying it was gonna happen whatever your answer was. But surprisingly- most people just say yes. Most people don’t compel America to bring its military down upon them to get what it wants- they see this obese oaf with a burger in one hand and a stack of money in the other with its genitals out and they invite it in and roll right over.
So then- if we know America is a joke, if we know America is an ogre and a clod that will f$ck anything that it can- if that’s established- it doesn’t really say much about America when it tries to get in your pants- but what’s its say about you when you invite it over for “a cup of coffee” at 1am? If you’re so much better- why are you in bed with this joke? Perhaps in the end the joke is that we simply hate those things in others that we hate about ourselves. Either way- Americans are aware we aren’t living up to what our nation is meant to e and lots of us are working to change that. Whatever nation you are from I wish you no ill will and won’t stoop to disparaging your country. If you love it- that’s good enough for me.
Lots of people LOVE living in countries we support with military aid or finance. Denmark, Japan, South Korea- just to name a few. There are certainly more impoverished countries than America, more dangerous in one way or another, and certainly culturally different. The thing about not liking America is that yes- moving to a country one might like more is an option- but America is a young country still growing- a country made plastic from its inception so that people who don’t like it don’t have to revolt or expatriate- they can work to change it. If someone doesn’t like America- they can certainly and likely should themselves be the kind of American they can be proud of, and work to change things. Democracy will decide wether their fellow countrymen agree- and if it doesn’t go their way- they can keep trying or go somewhere they’ll be happy. Just bitching seldom does much though.
It is quite often far more expensive to move- especially internationally- than most realize. Of course if one just wants to hop a plane with the clothes on their back and “figure it out as they go” we can argue it’s not that much- and some exceptions exist- but regardless people have different economic circumstances and if one doesn’t have it- $50 and $50000000 might as well be the same thing. I’m sorry to hear it. I hope things turn your way.
One thing I will note though that may be cheaper and easier than going overseas- America is a big country and it isn’t all the same. Sure, there are some similarities- but the overall culture, laws and how those laws are interpreted and enforced can change greatly place to place. Some places in America are very homogenous with an obvious majority to certain biases. Other places are more eclectic and open. Simply moving ones self to a part of America which best suits their values and desires can often be a huge help.
That won’t of course do much to assuage ill feelings over our foreign policies or federal government and its actions and players- but it can have a huge impact on day to day life. Of course I know that can be easier said than done sometimes too. I wish you well regardless. There isn’t one America- it’s many things to many people- what’s good for one is seldom good for all- but I hope you find what you’re looking for.
It's up to you as an individual to fact check multiple sources and educate yourself and not rely solely on one source
Freedom means that you can stand up and voice your opinion WITHOUT consequence. But it also means you have the freedom to be unique in your opinion, offensive, immoral, or even flat out wrong.
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Freedom isn't about everyone feeling comfortable, it's about having the right to get uncomfortable if you need to or want to.
America is my favorite dystopia sometimes.
Almost as if we aren't really like the caricature that you see on Twitter, like the country actually isn't anything like you described...
Nah, that can't be right.
[X] doubt
It's the equivalent of "people are making fun of me because they're jealous", nothing can be a model for everyone.
Nevermind that our culture, economy, and military steers the rest of the world.
ok, I'll stop, I don't want to fight, it's ok if we disagree and it's even better, as it's normal to love your country and that's why you love yours and I love mine (even though I wouldn't say any nation is superior to the others). Sometimes really black and white opinions make me want to add some nuance, that's it. :)
If you don't have pride in your country, find a better country. Or are you going to claim that Syria is just as good and valid as Poland or Japan?
If you aren't willing to stand for something, it's no wonder you'll fall for anything.
The world has stopped following your lead long time ago, everybody with an open mind can see where this leads to: a widely miseducated nation, where feelings and religious fanatism is set higher than common sense, science and facts, a society with a good lack of solidarity amongst each other, as everybody is just thinking of his own benefits. You're talking about liberty in the country with the highest percentage of inprisonment in the world. You are talking about competition whilst only a good dozen families are really profiting from everything. You are living in a financial feudalism without even recognising it. And stay away from sickness and pregnancy, both can end you for good.
That self-invented USP "Freedom" is available in almost every developped country.
Read a book, man. Travel.
Pick one issue at a time. And I'll break down whether it's accurate, misconstrued, or outright wrong.
But it doesn't change that we have one of highest number of people trying to come in.
As a matter of fact, America is definitely better than a lot of nations. Nations that allow female genital mutilation, commit genocide and ethnic cleansings, dump acid on or burn little girls alive, subscribe to sharia law, or wipe out an entire bloodline at some madman's behest. I'm definitely better than them.
I don't want to learn a damn thing from the likes of dictators, warlords, or theocratic despots.
I'm willing to bet you are better than those fuckers, too.
We're also better than countries that don't recognize the inherent rights like those outlined in the Bill of Rights, but the likes of Germany are still leagues above Assad's Syria.
Iraq and Afghanistan would've been over years ago if the locals would just tell us where haji planted the bomb, or where he's keeping the prisoners, or when the executions will take place.
You don't even need to load up the Kalashnikov yourself, just do something to hinder evil and aid those who are loading up. Instead of selling your cousin in the ANA out to haj, maybe tell his unit where haj is planning to ambush them.
I will be overjoyed when I am sent over there to do work alongside the locals already courageous enough to stand against evil, but that ain't my neighborhood. It's theirs.
I was never talking about going to far away places and loading up, but fighting evil in your own home. I've done what I could to resist negative elements, aid the police, and even throw down on my neighbor's behalf, and there is no doubt in my mind that the instant some fundamentalist nuts starts stringing people up and stripping away rights and liberties en masse, I will be the among the first to respond. Shit, I've been cut, stabbed, beat down, and shot at before ever joining the Army.
Though I will say with absolute certainty that when the state is complicit or worse in little girls being lit on fire, gays thrown from rooftops, or heretics being executed, enough of us will be willing to do work.
I raise you the likes of Hauptsturmführer Kurt-Siegfried Schrader, Major Josef Gangl, and countless other Nazis who did defect. As well as the likes of Schindler and Major Karl Plagge, who never took up arms against the fascists yet still resisted them so as to save lives and otherwise hinder the state's evil.
And allegedly General Erwin Rommel, and senior officers who actively tried to behead the Reich.
Even in the modern day, the Kurds, some parts of the old Northern Alliance, and the Afghan National Army and Police are standing against evil in their homelands.
More people need to be willing to do something, but I find myself far more sympathetic for the resistors than for the masses.
The goal isn't to die for your beliefs, it's to make the other dumb son of a bitch die for his.
Aside from that, I never said anything about fleeing. Those I mentioned stayed in-country, or in the fight at least. Not one tried to flee for their own sake.
I was saying about the Nazis that those who did rise up are examples of good men doing what they knew was right. And some of them nearly did kill the Reich, if more of them stood against the evil being carried out maybe the war would've gone differently, or been precluded entirely. Maybe General Patton and Rommel would've been leading the blitz to Stalingrad side by side if Hitler and the SS were reigned in or put down by the German people.
Similar to those who turn a blind eye to Haj planting an IED, who ignore the little girl being carried off to the site of her mutilation, who refuse to speak and lie on behalf of the man about to be defenestrated for his heart's desire, who ostracized a women who's only "crime" was being a victim of assault, and offer no aid for the victims, nor cooperation to those trying to stop the evil from continuing.
Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
I used his quote as an example of how wrong things get when people don't stand up.
All the letters in the world will be ignored and forgotten if no action accompanies them.
Just look at the aspiring communists and Soviet apologists outright ignoring and dismissing the atrocities of the regimes to come before.
Evil needs to be fought. Can this lead to bloodshed or misconstrued by the unhinged? Yes. But history has shown the consequences of standing idly by.
*spam or success button meme*