No, but we signed a bunch of treaties that said we would follow the rules of the rest of the fucking world, otherwise they will treat us like Russia and China and tell us to fuck off, not let us lead the way.
The enforcement arm of the UN is the U.S.. The single biggest militaty backer of the UN is the US. The US can pretty well do whatever it wants for the time being as every nation is tied to the US one way or another.
I will uphold American laws and values. Not Iranian, not French, not Mongolian.
The only reason I tolerate the UN is because they are toothless. The day they think to force my nation to submit to Mexican, German, or any entity that isn't America is the day I put holes in every blue helmet to even approach our borders.
If one seeks asylum the in U.S. they need to come in through a port of entry, not come across the Arizona desert. That makes them an illegal immigrant.
It's a popular technique for getting better healthcare options. You use a massive parent company to hire hundreds, thousands of employees. All of the employees are leased to smaller business. The small business pays the big one, the big one takes a tiny cut, buys your health insurance, pays your wages.
Constitutionally speaking, only convicts can be forced to do labor. But some people throw a fit and call it racist, or slavery, so a lot of jurisdictions don't bother.
Metalman covers the issue of slavery pretty darn well below- Federally inmate work is legal, Satan’s have their own laws- what you used to see in movies and is more or less illegal are “chain gangs.” The differentiation largely being the conditions under which one works. While slavery is arguably technically legal under the constitution- slavery has more or less been decided in the United States and by most of the world to be a violation of basic human rights. Incarceration is the best solution we have for certain people who are dangerous to society. However they are still human, and our treatment of them isn’t all about them but about us too.
We know we sometimes wrongfully sentence or convict, and even when convicted correctly some crimes are far less severe than others. So making prisoners work under conditions that we outlaw for safety, health, and compassion or that serve no purpose is outlawed in many states. We also know from last experience that such arrangements are ripe for corruption and often are corrupt- with corrections wardens or officers and judges often colluding or working alone to profit from a system of “free” “no questions asked” labor for personal profit. With convictions, arrests, and added sentence time or invented infractions to add time being applied.
It becomes even more morally dicey in corporate ran prisons. The person being put to work isn’t so much “paying back society” as they are making the private owners of that corporation wealthy. That transitions the debate from one of indentured servitude to one of state sponsored slavery for private benefit. Having prisoners work isn’t “bad.” They can learn skills and discipline, it can actually give them something to do while behind bars and maintain some semblance of normalcy to the outside world helping reintegration on release and keeping their minds busy while serving. It can also be used to help them build funds for reintegration while also making restitution to victims of their crimes and even offset the cost of their incarceration.
Even work given punitively can be used as a discipline aid- the military does this as well with things like KP duty or punitive watch or cleaning the orderly after hours. It may be PT, reduced pay or rations, or whatever the dark genius of an NCO can come up with the reach a lesson. And this is fine. Prison and the military both in theory have the same goal of using a mandatory tone period imposed to train a person in proper conduct and being a productive member of a society- with the clear difference being a non draft military is law abiding volunteers and a prison is convicted criminals.
But we have to be very careful how we allow work by prisoners to be performed. It’s a universal concept in an advanced society that simply being a prisoner doesn’t mean we can treat a person however we like. The fact that there is often negative emotions to prisoners is a large part of why we must be extra diligent and make sure that what lever we do to them isn’t simply meant to make their lives miserable but serves an actual purpose and respects their basic humanity. They are in prison for not respecting the humanity of others- so if we do the same as them we belong in prison with them.
Very well-said, @guest_.
,
To be clear, the worst prisoners won't be eligible for work. The other ones will be a part of society again and they'll remember if they were respected or not. If the work is degrading and the Corrections Corporation of America/CoreCivic is pocketing all the money, the inmates will feel exploited.
,
Multiply that general feeling of exploitation by over a million people getting released every two years in the US and it doesn't take a genius to realize it's in society's best interest NOT to piss off a massive subset of their populace. These are guys with families who love them, and networks of friends, who will all hear about their abuse.
,
I'm not saying the idea of work is bad. I'm just saying let the inmates have a share to start a new, healthier life when they're paroled.
Ya'll do know slavery is still legal at the federal level right? "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States". Most, if not all, states have legislation either against the practice or requiring payment to any convicted person performing manual labor.
Ok... so there is a legal basis for convicts to be used for work and where paid or to return a debt its technically indentured servitude and I’m not inherently disagreeing- but I want to point out to you for your consideration in making a good case for yourself that your argument as phrased defeats itself. You are saying: “they aren’t slaves, they’re just property...” The literal definition of a slave is a human who is the property of another and must obey them. So in your argument you have said “they aren’t slaves. They are slaves.”
It does work. We’ve seen it work in countries with recidivism rates that are extremely low. You can’t rehabilitate everyone of course, and some cases the effort of rehabilitation or costs or risks are just too high to practically justify- but at some point there becomes no point of further punishment than sadism. There’s no equivalence for any crime really. So if we decide the point of justice is to just cause suffering to those who caused others suffering that isn’t justice. No one is really served by that because as humans we can’t actually understand a suffering until we’ve been through it- so there’s questionable value in deference beyond a point. Society is hurt by crime, but it’s also hurt through incarceration and the spread of needless suffering too. The lesser hurt to the greatest ends is the best we get.
A: dont commit crimes and end up in prison
B: these work details get them outside and they are sought after positions.
They arent forced to do this, they can sit in their cell if they want but that gets pretty boring i imagine.
Tbh I imagine a good deal of prisoners enjoy the opportunity to get the hell out and experience anything that isn't grey bars, white walls, barbed wire, and prison politics. As long as the conditions are humane I'm not sure why this is a problem
The conditions aren't always humane is the problem. And when you force someone to work, they have no power to negotiate better working conditions.
I'm not saying don't use prison labor, I'm saying it should be a paid opportunity as opposed to a requirement. I'm not even saying paid at the same wage rates as everyone else, after all, prisoners have rent, food, and medical bills mostly covered for them. However prisoners doing labor should be paid, and it should be optional.
Where does community service fall in this? It's often a penalty, usually not optional, and can be undesirable jobs (ie picking up trash from highways etc).
At least where I live, you are assigned hours of community service but you have options about how you serve it. This allows some (albeit limited) control over your working environment. They are also not jobs that are normally paid- you work along side volunteers.
And I think community service is a great option to lessen jail time or replace other consequences. But I do still think it SHOULD be an option. I think you should be presented with the option- "You can either have 6 months parole and 200 hours community service-OR- you can go to prison for six months " Most people are going to choose the community service. But you know there has to be one sorry soul with drug charges whose back is just seriously fucked up-who might think prison will be easier on their health than community service.
That being said-I am not sure I am qualified to really make educated opinions on policies regarding community service...
I am concerned that if forcing prisoners to work was illegal, but ordering community service was not, attempts would be made to pass off hard labor jobs as community service requirements. For this reason I think that even if forced labor of prisoners was illegal-and community service was requirable-regulations should be in place to prevent abuse and maintain healthy working environments for community service workers.
There are a couple of key factors in community service and prison labor. The supposed primary intent of the justice system is the rehabilitation of criminals. That’s why many offenses do not warrant jail tike and only have fines. Someone who speeds in a car is just as much as criminal as anyone in prison- but while speeding presents a danger and is illegal- in most cases it’s not a prison level offense. To try and dissuade you from repeating the offense fines and penalties to your driving privileges are used. Community service is such a tool- in cases where a person perhaps isn’t an eminent and severe danger to others but does pose some threat to society...
... it might not make sense or even be more harmful to send them to prison f it can be avoided, but for their crime they do owe a debt to society. Community service is one tool to help teach a lesson to criminals while also helping repay their debt to society for their crimes. It’s also an alternative to fines or supplement. Talking on a cell phone while driving might be a $150 ticket- a huge amount to a struggling under employed parent, but to an executive or attorney a single phone call could be well worth $150 and that amount is paltry. In these cases the fine doesn’t really do anything to stop these people- but to those same people who’s time is worth hundreds of dollars an hour to them and possibly thousands or more to clients- community service can be a much more serious sentence and actually serve as a deterrent or meaningful punishment.
Likewise- for those struggling financial who a fine amount or loss of work time might mean loss of their home etc- being able to serve community service after work and or on weekends instead of going to prison or a fine might actually be a kindness.
So with all that laid down- we have to remember that the point of prison isn’t inherently to be punitive. That is a measure of it- but it primarily is intended to give “teeth” to laws and deter people from breaking them, rehabilitate law breakers to not offend again, and protect the public from law breakers being lose on the streets.
Any labor of the convoyed needs be under safe and humane conditions, needs to provide some real benefit to the worker be that pay, the absolution of debt, reduction in sentence, or increase in privileges etc. it needs to serve a public interest and not a private one, and should not be “for profit” or to subvert work from private industry such as corruption cases where officials used prison construction labor to undercut private contractors for job bids and then kept 100% of the money that would normally be used for employee benefits and insurance. Prisoners are not and should never be a free private work force for profit.
Wether in the case of directly or indirectly where the money is returned to the prison system- any profit of prison labor should be used to the convicts benefit even if that benefit is in upkeep for them and the prison, and should never be used for salary increases etc. for staff. Any money should also go into the system- and not back to a specific prison which would incentivize that prison to maximize profits. Instead it should be pooled and divided into the overall fiscal prisons budget to offset tax payer expenses. And never allocated to private aka corporate prisons.
It should also be clear that the work performed is for both the benefit of society and the benefit of the prisoners themselves- the work load, work type, the structure, and any rewards should be designed and maintained to provide a direct benefit to prisoners and their discipline and rehabilitation and not some vague mission like “hard work makes people honest...” but actual and tangible, reviewed and verified data which supports some behavioral or other benefits are linked to a type of work- and better yet if such work carries possible benefits in building job and life skills which can help reintegrate them after their sentence is served. It should be instructional and build them up as humans to where they are either better suited to re enter society as productive members, or more able to function and “behave” with social normalcy while in prison.
It’s crucial that we never forget that these are humans. Convicts are people- and almost every one of us isn’t any better. We conflate “prisoner” with “murderers” “rapists” “sociopaths..” but people aren’t just in prison for serious sex crimes or being cartoon drug kingpins or violent animals. People go to prison all the time for things that many people do or have done in their own lives- having some drinks and taking a drive, recreational drugs, shop lifting, so on and so on. Many times what separates us from someone in prison is just luck- that time you were driving too fast on a city street and you didn’t accidentally kill someone but they did. That time you took your friend to the mall and got pulled over and he didn’t have a backpack full of drugs- but the prisoners friend did and so he was transporting drugs. So on and so on.
Crime is crime- but some kid finding out that he can sell some drugs or that a guy will bring him a bunch of radios and he sells them and makes a little extra cash isn’t some diabolical villain- they aren’t even different than some clown who figures out he can embezzle millions from his work- but the embezzler is treated like a corrupt but otherwise “safe” person and often serves little time and the guy seeking stollen car parts is a dangerous low life. But prisoners are just people and the desire to punish and torment rapists and child abusers and the like shouldn’t lead us to the point we say that just because you’re in prison for any reason whatsoever that you are a degenerate who deserves whatever you get. We also have to remember that politicians and the like aren’t angles either and have before and will again abuse such things as prison labor if we do not enforce strict controls and require absolute transparency.
Well stated @guest_. I can get behind 99% of what you said.
However. I can tell you will absolute certainty that increased wages for staff can benefit people in any institution. Especially one that has a difficult time with employee retention.
When an employer needs staff, but is struggling to get staff, they often will overlook glaring issues in their employees. There is a gaurd who takes pleasure in harassing inmates, but nothing they do is going to get the prison sued, so they keep that employe on anyway. Not to mention having to share the workload among who is there whenever someone just doesn't show up. If employees are over worked and underpaid, they will not be good to the prisoners.
So well I agree that prison labor should not be used to line the pockets of the people at the top, who already make good money, if it allows more of the budget to go towards wages, I'm not opposed to that so long as the prisoners are rewarded for their work in some fashion.
@the kaylapup- I also mostly agree with you but believe it or not such a long reply was short hand! Wages are a complex thing. It’s anecdotally observable but shown in study that wage increases are a questionable motivator of performance. They must be used carefully. When we buy a new toy or outfit- the joy tends to be temporary. We may still enjoy it years later- but not in the same was as when we got it. An increase in wages provides a temporary increase in satisfaction most of the time- but as many very wealthy people demonstrate- there’s almost never enough money.
So you get a raise and your bills get less tight and your lifestyle tends to improve. But now you can afford better things and your cost of living goes up. In time you get used to the extra buying power of the money you make and instead of being upset you don’t get paid enough to buy a used car- you’re upset you can’t afford the used car you want, and so on. In fact- what we get paid actually tends to have very little to do with our work ethic for the most part- but how we feel about our jobs and our companies does tend to have a lot to do with how we feel about how much we get paid.
At some point we just can’t practically afford more money but we’ve conditioned employees to expect exponential increases to work. Likewise- we can attract more qualified candidates to a job through a higher base salary- but we need to make the job require higher qualifications and screen for character. Current prison guard is a job that you qualify for if you 1. Aren’t in prison, 2. Got a GED, 3. Can drive a car 4. Can pass a test 4. Aren’t to young or old. For federal jobs you need a degree or some sort of relevant work experience. You raise that bar, and suddenly many existing guards can’t pass it, and there’s one more decent career moved out of reach for people who aren’t 4 year grads.
Raise it too high, and well- if you will only accept excellent applicants for any job where you need hundreds or thousands of slots filled- you can’t function. At some point any job that requires mass labor has to say “ok- we just need bodies, not the best but just... acceptable...” but raising this bar raises the amount of work and expense in vetting candidates. It makes the hiring process slow and prohibitively drawn out. Replacements and the new hire relief comes slowly. As qualifications increase you also start to compete on a few fronts. If you can be a prison guard with the hours and risks and get paid $100k a year- but with the same effort and qualifications make more somewhere else, or even the same for less danger and hardship- most people will choose the latter now or down the line, and then you need to replace them. If you start paying more than say- a beat cop- now the police will all want raises or just transfer to corrections and you have an officer shortage- and so on.
Incentives and bonuses and the like are good because they are performance based- but must be on a metric. Where there is a metric- people will game it. If you tell people the number that needs to be high for them to make more- they’ll make that number high even at the expense of what the actual purpose of their job is. Pay is complex- but it CAN be used as an incentive- and underpaying or setting a low base pay and matching it with low qualifications and character requirements/assessments is a recipe for substandard work. However a major problem in prisons is sadism and corruption.
As seen with politicians- who classically and to this day make much more than the earning average for Americans- raising pay doesn’t actually tend to reduce corruption- it just increases their after corruption earnings, because there just is never enough money no matter how much you have unless you’re a multi billionaire and even then- bill gates hasn’t stopped making money.
We can use pay to help though for sure. So I didn’t mean completely what I said- but that itself would need extremely tight controls because just as with pay- when we create a for profit system in which a person can increase their own earnings through hitting certain metrics- they more often will prioritize those metrics. So a warden or guards who see a direct increase in their earnings based on prison labor, are incentivized to maximize the earnings that labor brings them. It’s literally a way to make as much as you want with 0 cost- except to those who’s labor is being used. At that point we are dangerously close to slavery.
It seems more prudent that a wage structure be set, and a schedule of increases be set based on clear metrics not related to inmate work quotas- perhaps indexes to inflation of the like as well- so that personnel at certain levels of seniority meeting performance criteria already know roughly what their next raise will be, and the next and so on if they make it there- and that amount isn’t increased through any abuses or gaming the system- but can be lost through these types of action failing them to qualify for raises.
That way there is a clear separation, justification, and progression of wages based on purely length and merit of service and not subject to factors they can influence beyond their conduct as guards. The money from prison labor is returned to the prison budget- and can support these anticipated wage increases- but the amount generated does not effect the increase at all. That makes the use of prison labor less prone for abuse as a profit tool or a method of self enrichment. It doesn’t stop kick backs- for instance a warden taking bribes from local contractors to ensure that his work crews are not put to any tasks that a private contractor might be bidding on- but other controls can be used such as a definition of types of work allowed and flat rates that must be charged by work type and estimated hours. This would also prevent the use of low bids to starve out contractors and high bids to avoid being hired in collusion with other contractors.
Lastly- transparency is of the utmost importance. No person let alone prison labor system should be anything but 100% open to public audit. No transactions or discussions should happen off the record. Civilians should be able to monitor work at will as it is performed. No room must be left for ambiguity or subversion save those areas prudent to the safety and security of people.
Its called community service all prisons do it. It gives them the opportunity to learn skills and interact with society in a positive manner while giving back to the community. Its an important step in their rehabilitation and reintegration.
when you are arrested, you are stripped of your rights. when i was in a county jail for 6 months, i worked as a "trustee" for 14 hour days for 50 cents an hour and one free haircut a month.
So I do not claim to know the particulars to the current situation and the post makes it seem like this situation is not acceptable and that may be the case. there is a potential to make this idea work though, one of the big issues with our current prison system is that it is basically a training ground for new criminals. supporting a system where criminals are offered the option to work towards reduced sentences and learn valuable skills (in construction say), could work really well to help mitigate this. Not only could you make a system that provides cheap labor for the construction industry you could help reduce the number of recruits that gangs are able to acquire in the prison system.
That said there is absolutely the potential for exploitation in the system and I think we would be best served having the government maintain direct control of these prisoners rather than having the privatized prison system handle it. The first thing that comes to mind is rebuilding infrastructure.
The only reason I tolerate the UN is because they are toothless. The day they think to force my nation to submit to Mexican, German, or any entity that isn't America is the day I put holes in every blue helmet to even approach our borders.
,
To be clear, the worst prisoners won't be eligible for work. The other ones will be a part of society again and they'll remember if they were respected or not. If the work is degrading and the Corrections Corporation of America/CoreCivic is pocketing all the money, the inmates will feel exploited.
,
Multiply that general feeling of exploitation by over a million people getting released every two years in the US and it doesn't take a genius to realize it's in society's best interest NOT to piss off a massive subset of their populace. These are guys with families who love them, and networks of friends, who will all hear about their abuse.
,
I'm not saying the idea of work is bad. I'm just saying let the inmates have a share to start a new, healthier life when they're paroled.
B: these work details get them outside and they are sought after positions.
They arent forced to do this, they can sit in their cell if they want but that gets pretty boring i imagine.
I'm not saying don't use prison labor, I'm saying it should be a paid opportunity as opposed to a requirement. I'm not even saying paid at the same wage rates as everyone else, after all, prisoners have rent, food, and medical bills mostly covered for them. However prisoners doing labor should be paid, and it should be optional.
And I think community service is a great option to lessen jail time or replace other consequences. But I do still think it SHOULD be an option. I think you should be presented with the option- "You can either have 6 months parole and 200 hours community service-OR- you can go to prison for six months " Most people are going to choose the community service. But you know there has to be one sorry soul with drug charges whose back is just seriously fucked up-who might think prison will be easier on their health than community service.
That being said-I am not sure I am qualified to really make educated opinions on policies regarding community service...
However. I can tell you will absolute certainty that increased wages for staff can benefit people in any institution. Especially one that has a difficult time with employee retention.
When an employer needs staff, but is struggling to get staff, they often will overlook glaring issues in their employees. There is a gaurd who takes pleasure in harassing inmates, but nothing they do is going to get the prison sued, so they keep that employe on anyway. Not to mention having to share the workload among who is there whenever someone just doesn't show up. If employees are over worked and underpaid, they will not be good to the prisoners.
So well I agree that prison labor should not be used to line the pockets of the people at the top, who already make good money, if it allows more of the budget to go towards wages, I'm not opposed to that so long as the prisoners are rewarded for their work in some fashion.
I am curious as to why this is happening, though.
That said there is absolutely the potential for exploitation in the system and I think we would be best served having the government maintain direct control of these prisoners rather than having the privatized prison system handle it. The first thing that comes to mind is rebuilding infrastructure.